Vintage motorcycle engine

Countach LP400 · May 23, 2009

Hi all. I have decided to build a brass-era style motorcycle from scratch over the summer, something like a Pope Single, and I am currently looking for an engine.

I don't know what to use....the standard Chinese engine would always work, but I'd rather have something that looks, feels, and sounds old. Moreover I would like to have manual spark advance, to make it feel completely vintage.

Naturally spark advance would have to be engineered, but what about sound, appearance, and feel? Are there any good engines that fit my needs?

Needless to say I can't afford a real brass era engine, though that would be perfect.

Thanks!

eDJ · May 23, 2009

You may locate some motorcycle junk yards around the country and find something from
the fifties or earlier that could be dressed up to look vintage. I've seen some old Benelli
and Gilera motors that look like throw backs to earlier times.

If you want to stay within the guidelines of a motorized bicycle you may have to stay
under 50cc, one horse power, one gear ratio, one rider, but that will depend on what state
you live in.

BikeBerry's 50cc has a fairly round cylinder and could look like an earlier motor where as those
with the square cylinder fins look more mid sixties and later. There are a few of those Russian
motors around yet, but they are expensive. They have a vintage look though.

I'm one who has been sitting around trying to figure out how to "antique" one of these Chinese
motors enough to make it look like an old original at a glance. But you'll still be having people
ask if it's a 1910 era bike or a reproduction. New chrome parts will quickly betray the fact that
it's a reproduction.

A belt drive will look like the bike is a pre 1913 or so where if you use a chain and sprocket
it will appear as a later bike.

These are just some things I've sorted out since I've been looking at a vintage build.

Motoschwinn · May 23, 2009

Well... One could look at changing the appearance of the Chinese motor. I've thought about this quite a bit. I think the biggest change I would like to make is altering the appearance of the clutch cover, and the magneto/clutch arm covers. I've toyed with using paints to do this, I think drab military colors would age the motor, and I've thought about having faux covers made. A sheet metal worker could really knock off some vintage style "cover-ups".

Of course, this doesn't help you in the sound a feel dept... I did a Google after reading your post, and vintage motors are outrageous!

Countach LP400 · May 23, 2009

Thanks guys. I'm wondering if I should just get a regular 66cc (80) and machine a new cylinder and head, to make it look more old, along with the clutch cover etc. that Motoshwinn suggested. But again that wouldn't help me in the sound and feel department.

A Bellini would be fantastic, but I'm a tad concerned with finding service and parts for it.

The optimum choice would be some sort of low RPM agricultural engine, but finding one that is light and the right shape would be tricky.

Maybe I should just build my own, using a China engine as a starting point? If I could stroke it out, that might work. Do 2-cycles respond well to stroking?

Motoschwinn · May 23, 2009

I think Jim at Creative Engineering could answer that best. He's a very active user here.

Motoschwinn · May 23, 2009

Of course with time the china motor can look like this:

fasteddy · May 23, 2009

If I may toss out an idea. Being an antique dealer and some time car restorer I traveled to many steam and farm shows. You may be very surprised at the number of old motors for sale from lawn mowers,tillers ect.
The people selling them are usually very knowledgeble about parts supplies and getting them running.
Tell them what you are doing and I'm sure they will help all they can. Just be prepared for a lot of questions.
Steve.

eDJ · May 23, 2009

A while back I was on an Antique Motor Restoration site looking around. Most of the
stuff I saw wouldn't work but of that that could it was over 50cc and 1 hp.

The guys had parts by spec's more than PN's. But when stuff is that old finding parts
for it may have to be done with measurements as it may no longer be inventoried by
part numbers.

I like the idea of aftermarket cylinders & heads if anyone has the means to build such.

next to that is tooling plates of aluminum to cover & seal the sides of these Chinese
motors to make it appear more like an older motor. Fortunately the side covers in the
old days looked more like slabs of smoothe metal.

I'm sure if someone wanted to do it they could tool a cylinder head that would look
like the old 4 cycle engine flat head set ups even though they are 2 cycle.

One of the nice things about the Whizzer engine is the look of it. But the cost of them
will no doubt drive a market that makes low cost knock off's to dress up a cheap Chinese
HT motor. In time someone will prototype these things and go to China with it. Already
someone is making a knock off of those dual spring Monark forks, so you don't have to live
on eBay waiting to snipe them in the last few seconds.

But when someone starts making these frames that look like boardtrack racer frames (even
as kits for the buyer to weld) and motor dress up kits which will make a vintage looking
motor out of a stock HT, then more building of these Vintage look alikes will begin to
happen. And did I mention vintage looking fuel tanks and belt drive adapter kits too ?

These are the things that are missing in the market now. "Springer" forks are available as with
most of the rest of the stuff to build with.

Countach LP400 · May 24, 2009

I think I have narrowed it down to 2 options.

I could either go with a Minarelli moped engine, or the motor from an old chainsaw. Ebay revealed to me that there is no shortage of cheap chainsaw engines from the 50s and earlier. The high displacement and torque are plusses, as are centrifugal clutches and light weight.

Chainsaws are ugly, but not as ugly as go-cart engines, and I am sure that I could dress one up with new plates, clutch covers, etc.

Luckily enough, I don't have to worry about engine size. California law states that it must produce 2 or less gross horsepower, but says nothing about displacement.

Of course I could just get both, a China engine and a chainsaw engine, and mess with them until I found the one that served me best.

Creative Engineering · May 24, 2009

Countach,

I would not consider building an engine powered bicycle with one of the old, large dispacement, chain saw engines.

These engines are powerfull, and they have a powerband! When this powerband kicks in; the bicycle is going to self destruct with you on it...I'm not a safety weenie...it's just a matter of fact.

I remember driving a racing go-gart years ago, (70's), that had a McCulloch 101 chain saw engine. When the powerband came in, (at 20 mph), it rocketed to 50 mph, and topped out at 70!

Consider the base hardware that you will be sitting on and riding...then put in an appropriate engine.

Jim

Creative Engineering · May 24, 2009

eDJ said:
A while back I was on an Antique Motor Restoration site looking around. Most of the
stuff I saw wouldn't work but of that that could it was over 50cc and 1 hp.

The guys had parts by spec's more than PN's. But when stuff is that old finding parts
for it may have to be done with measurements as it may no longer be inventoried by
part numbers.

I like the idea of aftermarket cylinders & heads if anyone has the means to build such.

next to that is tooling plates of aluminum to cover & seal the sides of these Chinese
motors to make it appear more like an older motor. Fortunately the side covers in the
old days looked more like slabs of smoothe metal.

I'm sure if someone wanted to do it they could tool a cylinder head that would look
like the old 4 cycle engine flat head set ups even though they are 2 cycle.

One of the nice things about the Whizzer engine is the look of it. But the cost of them
will no doubt drive a market that makes low cost knock off's to dress up a cheap Chinese
HT motor. In time someone will prototype these things and go to China with it. Already
someone is making a knock off of those dual spring Monark forks, so you don't have to live
on eBay waiting to snipe them in the last few seconds.

But when someone starts making these frames that look like boardtrack racer frames (even
as kits for the buyer to weld) and motor dress up kits which will make a vintage looking
motor out of a stock HT, then more building of these Vintage look alikes will begin to
happen. And did I mention vintage looking fuel tanks and belt drive adapter kits too ?

These are the things that are missing in the market now. "Springer" forks are available as with
most of the rest of the stuff to build with.

Thanks for the tip...

I will look into this!

Jim

Countach LP400 · May 25, 2009

That powerband issue is good to know! Don't want to accidentally kill myself!

If I work to build a frame from scratch that can handle the power, and use motorcycle wheels, drivetrain, etc, do you think there is still a problem?

I guess its not really a motorized bicycle anymore if I do that. It will probably weigh at least 160lbs....but it will have pedals, like a vintage Harley.

Or maybe I could do something to lower compression, and with it power? Would that work? Old bikes had huge engines, but put out very little power because of low compression and rpm. Can this be done, or does it require a total re-design of the engine?

Countach LP400 · May 25, 2009

Maybe I could use a big flywheel to smooth out power impulses? That would probably look great too.

Another option might be an old hit and miss washing machine engine. Some beautiful units from the 1930s can be found cheap on ebay. Perfect sound, perfect appearance, but maybe a little weak? Maybe I could use 2 of them? Just wondering.

Creative Engineering · May 25, 2009

If you were to build a frame and use light motorcycle components to finish it out...It will be fine.

Even the lightest MC components are far stronger than bicycle stuff.

I'm really not sure what would be best as far as a starting point regarding the engine.

Being that you have the ability to make parts, I would take the time to find that "perfect engine". Custom builds are a lot of work and you don't want to get down to the end and regret you're engine choice.

One of the old 4-cycle thumpers would definitely give you the sound and feel that you are looking for.
They did tend to be heavy for thier power output, so a custom frame will be needed.

This also brings up another problem, engine RPM range. 2-cycle engines, and some of the little 4's have a wide RPM range, (2-8K). In a single gear ratio set-up, there is enough of an RPM range to give you the equivalent range of speed.

If you use one of the old thumpers, you will need some sort of a transmission, or you will take off from start...accelerate a bit...and then top out quickly without much at all in terms speed range.

Given a little homework this could come together to be a really cool bike.

I look forward to seeing the progress.

Jim

Crazy Horse · May 25, 2009

Re: Vintage motorcycle engine Crazy Horse Say EZMOTORBIKE!

I suggest you look at the ezmotorbike engine.

Peace Crazy Horse.

Motoschwinn · May 25, 2009

Re: Vintage motorcycle engine Crazy Horse Say EZMOTORBIKE!

Crazy Horse said:
!HOW! Crazy Horse suggest you look at the ezmotorbike engine.

Peace Crazy Indian Joe!

Hey Chief.. That doesn't look like a vintage motor at all. No plastic and pull start on vintage bikes.

Countach LP400 · May 25, 2009

The more I look at those old Maytag washing machine motors, the more I like them. While they give out only about 1 horsepower each, I'm guessing they have quite a bit of torque. I figure if I rig up a centrifugal clutch and a Nuvinci style rear hub, I'd probably have a decent setup. I could probably jet the carbourator to get a bit more power too.

I'm going to buy one and see how it looks, runs, etc. Once I've done that, I'll build a frame around it, and make room to accomodate a second.

Now if I can just figure out how to set up manual spark advance....

Apparently I'm not the first one to consider using one of these engines for propulsion. Lots of kids in the 40's made go-carts with 'em. Top speed was about 8mph, but with more than one gear, you could get as much as 20mph. On a bike you can probably go even faster.

matt167 · May 25, 2009

Billd on The AMC Forum, American Motors Discussion Forums toys around with the antique engines and has a couple of the Maytag engines, he could probably tell you what you need to know about them or any other vintage engine you may decide to use. also has his site for antique engines here Bill's Antique Gas Engines

eDJ · May 26, 2009

It's been my thinking that a motor could just be dressed up a bit to give it a more
vintage appearance. On the left side a 1/4 inch thick piece of aluminum plate could be
cut & drilled to bolt up over the exhisting covers to give a different look. At a distance
it may pass for being an earlier motor.

Modifying a Cylinder to apply facades of push rod tubes could give it a 4 cycle
look also. It may take a specially made cylinder head that overlaps to the left
to mount these tubes to and a lip at the top of the 1/4 inch plate for these to
appear to terminate to. By building different shaped heads and cylinders the
motor could be modified look quite different.

If an aluminum jug could be made with a steel liner a hard chrome upper ring
and cast iron lower ring could be used about as well. But the outer aluminum
could be styled to appear like an early 4 cycle jug and if a special cylinder
head were styled to appear like something from 1910 then the little motor
could about offer the yesteryear look. I haven't played around with trying
to style the right side of one of these motors yet.

Below is just one sketch:

HoughMade · May 26, 2009

The old washing machine engines have been of interest to me. I'm kicking around a Maytag 72 project- a small flat opposed twin.

YouTube - Hot Rod Maytag 72

I actually makes a bit less power, stock, than a Maytag 92 single....but its a twin for gosh sake. Just listen!

I have also thought about an old Harley 2 stroke. With their sort of rounded lines, they look pretty vintage. You may luck out and find a 50cc. They show up on ebay once in a while and have a 4 speed transmission. Of course, there is also the Harley Hummer 125cc and 165cc engines- still look vintage. Here are a couple of pics.

The first pic is a 125cc (older, harder to find). The Second is a 165cc which is easier to find. The third is the 50cc. Finally, there's always the Whizzer... (fourth pic).

Vintage motorcycle engine

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