No Chain Tensioner!!

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allen standley

allen standley

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Oct 22, 2011
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I'm a little late jumping on here but I've never used a kit supplied tensioner never will. I always go to tractor supply and buy a box of #41 chain and a couple half links - enough to do 2 bikes. By taking your time and being patient you will achieve a happy balance on a bike with dropouts. done it several times. Check out my albums "Happy Chains" I hope to be helpful.
 
scotto-

scotto-

Custom 4-Stroke Bike Builder
Jun 3, 2010
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KCvale said:
The 415 I get in GT5 kits is dandy and these will even run HD 410 with the right sprockets, I just find the slightly wider 41 to be a pain in the a$$ to work with, especially on chain breakers.
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2door said:
I'm curious KC. Why you say to "forget #41 chain". It is far superior to the Chinese 415 that comes in the kits. If made by a good company, Diamond, Browning, etc. the #41 is precision made with no kinks, twists or binding rollers/side plates. They are not pre-stretched which requires many more initial adjustments to maintain tension than the #41 counterparts.
Tom
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It seems a 415 chain is dandy.......which makes it superior to the #41 chain according to KC laff

Strive to build bikes that are dandy in quality, not superior? Just dandy.... ;)
 
BarelyAWake

BarelyAWake

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Jul 21, 2009
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lol, this always goes the same: "NO chain tensioner!... unless, except, if, maybe, but..." & "#41 vs 415 - ding, ding, ding!"

There's no "one size fits all" solution, an idler/tensioner isn't a "yes or no" or even a bad thing if built right, that both the #41 and the 415 chains are redonkulous overkill for these kit engines, even poorly made it's like a 10ton anchor on a surfboard.

Heck, I've run multi-speed 3/32 on my shifter builds for thousands of miles with no more or less problems then any other chain I've had, even on my hybrid tadpole which weighs 120lbs dry & defo has more oomph than any stock kit equivalent.

I'm not saying run right out and get cheap chains, that you should bolt on a tensioner even if you don't need one - all I'm sayin' is given the diversity in bikes, motors & builders, there's no way we can declare that there's one answer for all. There's advantages & disadvantages to each & every solution, dependent only on that particular problem.

...which means we could run around this one infinitely - or simply suggest there's possible alternatives, after finding out about the specific build it's for.

Kit tensioners/idlers are sketchy, some builds have to have one, there are alternatives.

Kit chains are low quality (surprise lol), both it and it's replacement equivalent are massive overkill yet the additional size (width) helps make up for minor sprocket misalignment, so they're both cheap & easy.

Anythin' above and beyond that is a preformance modification, a preference - not wrong, but perhaps not necessary.
 
KCvale

KCvale

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Feb 28, 2010
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BarelyAWake said:
There's no "one size fits all" solution, an idler/tensioner isn't a "yes or no" or even a bad thing if built right, that both the #41 and the 415 chains are redonkulous overkill for these kit engines, even poorly made it's like a 10ton anchor on a surfboard.

Anythin' above and beyond that is a performance modification, a preference - not wrong, but perhaps not necessary.
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My point entirely.
Ship anchor chain is better than rope, but my dingy is fine with anchor rope.
 
scotto-

scotto-

Custom 4-Stroke Bike Builder
Jun 3, 2010
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KCvale said:
My point entirely.
Ship anchor chain is better than rope, but my dingy is fine with anchor rope.
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Your dingy isn't fine....... it's just dandy!

laff

And incidentally, if you run two or three chains on a motorized bike.....you best have a chain tensioner in there some where, you just best ;)
 
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The_Aleman

The_Aleman

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Jul 31, 2008
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el People's Republik de Kalifornistan
scotto- said:
And incidentally, if you run two or three chains on a motorized bike.....you best have a chain tensioner in there some where, you just best ;)
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Heh. I just now found out SBP sells RHS tensioners for SBP kits. But I see this:

SBP.com said:
Although Sick Bike Parts does not feel that chain tensioners are necessary we give the customers what they want.
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My bike has 3 chains and I've run with 1 spring-loaded tensioner (inner crank to rear wheel) and one rigid idler (jackshaft output to outer crank) for about 5K miles. It greatly reduced drivetrain oscillation. Seems like every YT video I see of a bike with a SBP shift kit it has this oscillation. Granted, single-cylinder engines have poor inherent balance and shift kits just exacerbate the issue - especially if the chain is loose.

The jackshaft output to outer crank chain is the nasty one tho. IMHO, that chain just about _requires_ a sprung tensioner. SBP's method of adjusting this chain on a 4-strke shift kit is to loosen 6 bolts and turn a couple of nuts on a threaded rod to adjust jackshaft mount height. F that action! But this chain seems to contribute more to oscillations than the other 2, so it's important. I've run many combinations of one chain loose and others tight and found the "outer jackshaft" to be the foremost contributor of oscillations.

Anyway, in 2012 after accumulating ~6K miles, I had to replace my jackshaft mount because it was an early SBP version and it was beat to heck. So I rebuilt the whole motor mount and drivetrain, regearing the works so that pedal redline matched engine redline. Pedal assist even at 30+! At this time I fine-tuned everything with half-links and new axle adjustors and ran ZERO tensioners.

To be perfectly honest, it ran better than it ever did for about 1000 miles. Very little oscillation. Then over time, the dang outer crank chain loosened up, sure enough. An "unfortunate" side-effect of my own setup is that I cannot adjust this chain using SBP's method. I don't have the clearance. I have the SBP mount as low as it can possibly go and no room to go up.

I have about 8500 miles on my bike and about 2500 miles on the current setup. Oscillations on the outer jackshaft are getting nasty. Hence, looks like I'll be ordering SBP's RHS chain tensioner. I'm very grateful they sell it now, as I don't have the time to make my own. I've drawn up a few over the last couple years, but none were as simple as the one they sell now.

Long story short, a tensioner might not be _necessary_ but it sure can help in the right situation!
 
scotto-

scotto-

Custom 4-Stroke Bike Builder
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There s certainly nothing wrong running a well thought out chain tensioner when running multiple chains on a bike.

Running two chains without any tensioners is ideal if everything stays properly tensioned. Throw a third chain in there somewhere and it becomes a headache.

The one thing I've always disliked about two-wheeled bikes in general is the "chain drive"......meaning chains. Drive shafts and belts should should have done away with chains entirely by now. Come on progress, get with the program :D

Good bit of info there Aleman.
 
A

ajoh

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Mar 21, 2014
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The_Aleman said:
I don't mind chains...sure they wear out pretty quick and need to be lubed regularly to keep maximum efficiency -
but if they break, they are easy to fix with a spare link or 5 :D
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i mix my chain lube an it seems to last longer than the "normal" way of chain lube my mix also works extremely well for wheel bearings etc as well.

now some may screw there noses up at this but it damn well works very well

mix automotive wheel bearing grease with graphite powder at roughly 70/30 ratio
for chains remove chain an clean in degreaser then blast with hose then degrease again untill chain is completely clean of all dirt an old lube then dry!

now the messy part scrape the grease mix into your hand an grab chain sliding your hand along the chain repeat, repeat, repeat an repeat clean all sprockets an refit chain then peddle while holding the chain this will work more of the "lube" into the chain after a little time you'll notice some of the "lube mix" all over the sprockets

scrape it off with a wood icecream stick or the likes of, reapply it to the chain
an keep peddling while your other hand is holding your chain

all up takes roughly 10min or so.... it works in a few ways the grease lubes the rollers etc the graphite powder gets under the rollers also lubing (as it's a dry lube anyway it help "should" the chain go "dry") an the mix helps stop sand an dirt from getting into the moving parts of the chain allowing you to wipe the dirt away at a later point in time

i've used this for years on my peddlers an never had one issue only that while working into the chain over the next few days/week it can get a little messy but nothing to bad an that can't be cleaned in seconds

hope this helps

ps, yes i did say it can be used on bike wheel bearings too
 
BarelyAWake

BarelyAWake

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ajoh said:
...mix automotive wheel bearing grease with graphite powder at roughly 70/30 ratio...

now the messy part scrape the grease mix into your hand an grab chain sliding your hand along the chain repeat, repeat, repeat an repeat clean all sprockets an refit chain then peddle while holding the chain this will work more of the "lube" into the chain after a little time you'll notice some of the "lube mix" all over the sprockets...
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An interesting procedure, I do something similar myself - but only during the rigors of winter use & abuse as the rock salt & calcium chloride they use on the roads around here simply eradicate any traces of lubrication with as little as one ride, chains protected with anything less generally only last a week before they become corroded, a month before they're unusable (binding links).

Having said that, the reason I don't use it in all seasons is even in the warmer temperatures the viscosity of most automotive bearing grease is such that it can cause ...well ...not bound links exactly, but "lag time" if you will, slightly gummy the links don't quite move as freely as with thinner lubricants.

This may seem a minor point, even irrelevant - and it pretty much is with the typical 41/410/415 kit drive chains, but with the 3/32" bike chain we almost all have as well, it can exhibit some interesting behaviors when packed with thicker greases, particularly during deceleration or backpedaling w/derailleurs as the chain can arc over, instead of laying on/in the cog's teeth. If there's any lateral force, that chain can now happily hop off. It can also contribute to chain slap/whip* - where it smacks the stays & generally makes a nuisance of itself.

Admittedly, I've not tried a 30% graphite powder mix (and I defo will, thanks!), but I have tried diluting bearing grease with other additives, motor oil, machine oil, & "bicycle chain oil" (likely just expensive machine oil lol) & even solvents like kerosene, denatured alcohol & acetone to try to dial in that perfect consistency... so far, it's jus' been a messy waste of time, there really wasn't much difference unless thinned to the point of pointlessness, as I just made myself chain oil, with all the same problems that cause me to try grease in the first place >.<

Now to be clear, this is a very minor problem & one unlikely to be experienced with a chain as heavy as the kit's or one that doesn't require or have some amount of slack (idlers, tensioners & derailleurs oh my), but I just wanted to say thanks for the tip - and caution that you might experience some technical difficulty with lighter chains jus' in case ;)



chain slap/whip* = there's a term for this & that may be it, not the tool "chain whip" obv (used for removing cassettes) but when the chain smacks the stays/frame not due to alignment, but slack, usually during deceleration... bejabbered ifn I can remember what it is, thought there was another name for it - anyone help? I seem to be going slightly senile :p
 
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A

ajoh

Member
Mar 21, 2014
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australia
scotto- said:
What happens when you accidentally suck your fingers in between the sprocket and the chain?
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there is always one in every crowd lol smarta.. lol

BarelyAWake said:
An interesting procedure, I do something similar myself - but only during the rigors of winter use & abuse as the rock salt & calcium chloride they use on the roads around here simply eradicate any traces of lubrication with as little as one ride, chains protected with anything less generally only last a week before they become corroded, a month before they're unusable (binding links).

Having said that, the reason I don't use it in all seasons is even in the warmer temperatures the viscosity of most automotive bearing grease is such that it can cause ...well ...not bound links exactly, but "lag time" if you will, slightly gummy the links don't quite move as freely as with thinner lubricants.

This may seem a minor point, even irrelevant - and it pretty much is with the typical 41/410/415 kit drive chains, but with the 3/32" bike chain we almost all have as well, it can exhibit some interesting behaviors when packed with thicker greases, particularly during deceleration or backpedaling w/derailleurs as the chain can arc over, instead of laying on/in the cog's teeth. If there's any lateral force, that chain can now happily hop off. It can also contribute to chain slap/whip* - where it smacks the stays & generally makes a nuisance of itself.

Admittedly, I've not tried a 30% graphite powder mix (and I defo will, thanks!), but I have tried diluting bearing grease with other additives, motor oil, machine oil, & "bicycle chain oil" (likely just expensive machine oil lol) & even solvents like kerosene, denatured alcohol & acetone to try to dial in that perfect consistency... so far, it's jus' been a messy waste of time, there really wasn't much difference unless thinned to the point of pointlessness, as I just made myself chain oil, with all the same problems that cause me to try grease in the first place >.<

Now to be clear, this is a very minor problem & one unlikely to be experienced with a chain as heavy as the kit's or one that doesn't require or have some amount of slack (idlers, tensioners & derailleurs oh my), but I just wanted to say thanks for the tip - and caution that you might experience some technical difficulty with lighter chains jus' in case ;)



chain slap/whip* = there's a term for this & that may be it, not the tool "chain whip" obv (used for removing cassettes) but when the chain smacks the stays/frame not due to alignment, but slack, usually during deceleration... bejabbered ifn I can remember what it is, thought there was another name for it - anyone help? I seem to be going slightly senile :p
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just note bud i've always used this "mix" on all my non motorized bikes an it's never given me lag time i use to do the same with oil (mixed graphite powder into it) it worked very well however the oil also allowed dirt/ road grime into the chain where as the grease mix doesn't this "mix" "should" only work even better on heavier chains like that used in these kits

anyway i just wanted to share an maybe it helps some people i know i'll always use it as i've seen the benefits on both chains an wheel bearings etc
 
scotto-

scotto-

Custom 4-Stroke Bike Builder
Jun 3, 2010
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ajoh said:
there is always one in every crowd lol smarta.. lol
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The answer however is that it hurts!

As a 10yr. old kid I was checking the chain tension while pedaling my bike in the neighborhood. My index finger nail was pierced by the front sprocket and stuck......with 23 more teeth to revolve around and there was really good chain tension.

A neighbor man comes out and wanted to use a hack saw to cut the chain to free my crushed finger. I yelled at him "you idiot, go get a Cresent wrench". Now loosen the rear axle nuts quickly........

A very true and painful story.
 
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