Bogs and Backfires

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Rambler

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Jul 25, 2009
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My bike's engine bogs and sometimes backfires when I give it gas. It pulls pretty well for a while, but is very touchy and inconsistent, i have to screw around with the choke while riding to keep it up and running. Still in break in period, running 20:1 gas/oil.

Could this be air leak related?

I have a 48cc skyhawk w/ std cns carb, running a #72 jet, and stock exhaust.

I've ruled out the cdi and magneto as a source of the problem, as well as the exhaust and sparkplug. It has something to do with the carb, and I'm not sure what, even though it's on the leanest setting, I find that the sparkplug is wet and black, not that nice chocolate brown color.

If it is an air leak, what can I do to solve the problem. I have some silicone gasket sealant in a tube, and was wondering where to apply it, I am assuming I should put it on the outside of the nipple where the carb attaches to the block, before attaching the carb, correct?
 

otheracco

New Member
Jul 19, 2010
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Minnesota - Near Cities
Hmmm, I've read that silicone based products will not work with gas. You might want to look into that. Your inconsistency does indeed sound like a vacuum leak to me. You should start the engine, disengage to clutch, and either idle or rev the engine to an even RPM.

Have a can of carb cleaner ready and spray it on the intake manifold. If the engine has a change in RPM, then you have a vacuum leak.
 

rustycase

Gutter Rider
May 26, 2011
2,746
5
0
Left coast
I guess I got pretty much the same setup...

Black n' wet plug does mean too rich, but spitting back through the carby is too lean.

Mine came with #71 drill size main jet and four stroking all over the place.
Went to #74 and it would NOT run hardly at all... took it open, back to #71 and it's still running poorly, so I'm going to open it up to #69 or #68, next.

I disabled my choke by removing the remote cable to eliminate that possibility of dumping fuel in there anytime the cable might get tugged...

..you can use some rtv on there... sparingly!

The float is very tricky... after 3 or 4 tries mine is accidentally working right.
Have you removed the vent tube from the air cleaner?
That could theoretically send a fuel slosh in there from time to time...

The nt is simpler, and reportedly better.
I'd like to try a dellorto, or D clone...
just for fun

Good luck
rc
 

nightcruiser

New Member
Mar 25, 2011
1,180
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USA
My bike's engine bogs and sometimes backfires when I give it gas. It pulls pretty well for a while, but is very touchy and inconsistent, i have to screw around with the choke while riding to keep it up and running. Still in break in period, running 20:1 gas/oil.

Could this be air leak related?

I have a 48cc skyhawk w/ std cns carb, running a #72 jet, and stock exhaust.

I've ruled out the cdi and magneto as a source of the problem, as well as the exhaust and sparkplug. It has something to do with the carb, and I'm not sure what, even though it's on the leanest setting, I find that the sparkplug is wet and black, not that nice chocolate brown color.

If it is an air leak, what can I do to solve the problem. I have some silicone gasket sealant in a tube, and was wondering where to apply it, I am assuming I should put it on the outside of the nipple where the carb attaches to the block, before attaching the carb, correct?
I have a SkyHawk GT-5 66cc with CNS carb, close but not exactly the same...
You could be looking at an air leak, cause everything on mine was loose from the factory. Make sure the carb gasket is in place and intact, make sure the bowl screws are tight. Contrary to popular belief the white spacer is NOT the seal on the carb, the black rubber seal inside the neck of the carb is the seal. Make sure your carb is getting mated onto that black seal all the way, wiggle it a bit and press it in place, keep pressure on it while you tighten down the mounting screw on the neck. Also make sure your intake and exhaust are tight into the engine.
I know I had some air leaks initially, unfortunately fixing the air leaks didnt make the carb run much better. My jet was also a #72 from the factory, for my 66cc this was definitely too small. The only fix to make mine run properly was to drill out that jet, among other things.
I posted a long thread about all I did to my CNS carb to get it running great, check it out here, http://motorbicycling.com/f4/cns-carb-working-great-32736.html , I think you will find it helpful....
Good luck
 

Rambler

New Member
Jul 25, 2009
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There are no air leaks now, and the engine no longer backfires.

The engine still bogs with any ammount of throttle above 5%, 10% if I'm lucky. I've tried several different spark plugs with no change in this. The plug is now brown, after I shrunk the main jet to #80, enrichening the mix with the E-clip does nothing, and if anything makes it slightly worse. I have no middle or top end. The muffler is fine, and I am wondering about the CDI, but all of the plugs are sparking just fine, so far as I can tell, leastways.

Any Ideas?
 

rustycase

Gutter Rider
May 26, 2011
2,746
5
0
Left coast
Rambler, I've gone from all around 4 stroking at a #71 number drill size to a smaller jet of #74 which got rid of the 4 stroking but the motor just would not go.

So I've opened it up nearly step by step and so far, #69 drill size for .029 has been the best.

Along the way I disabled my choke cable because I suspected it of hanging open and dumping fuel in, originally.

And all that to say, I cannot believe your engine will run at all with a number 80 drill size jet.

Oh, and all I said above is regarding a cns on a skyhawk 48cc w/stock pipe.
...40:1 valvoline oil on a well run-in motor, 44T rear. fat guy operating@900ft asl.

Best
rc
 

Rambler

New Member
Jul 25, 2009
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thanks for the input, I am gonna delay the completion date, and get the NT carb, though I hate to have to do it. This CNS carb is enfuriating, pathetic, and abysmal. I'm gonna keep experimenting though, cause I'm not gonna let this stupid carburetor win, I will prevail in the end, if it kills me.
 

nightcruiser

New Member
Mar 25, 2011
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There are no air leaks now, and the engine no longer backfires.

The engine still bogs with any ammount of throttle above 5%, 10% if I'm lucky. I've tried several different spark plugs with no change in this. The plug is now brown, after I shrunk the main jet to #80, enrichening the mix with the E-clip does nothing, and if anything makes it slightly worse. I have no middle or top end. The muffler is fine, and I am wondering about the CDI, but all of the plugs are sparking just fine, so far as I can tell, leastways.

Any Ideas?
IMHO you are going the wrong way with the jet on your carb. #80 is WAY too small, mine ran like crap at #72, can't imagine it running at all at #80. (the bigger the number the smaller the bit) Do yourself a favor, try out a #70 or #69 drill on your jet, I think if you do that you will have good top end. If you dont have good low end after that then adjust your float a bit, if your mid range is lacking richen the mid throttle mix by moving the "e" clip toward the point of the needle.
I was about to give up and buy an NT carb before I decided to give the CNS one last shot and open up the main jet a bit. After I did that I am extremely happy with the performance of my CNS carb, since you are already messing with the jets give a larger one a try, you wont be sorry.
Make sure you check my longer thread about tuning the CNS carb that I linked above...
Good luck...
 

Rambler

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Jul 25, 2009
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I keep stepping up the jet in size, but it keeps bogging at the same exact spot, about 5-10%, right now I am at a #72 main jet, I will keep you posted, it's bogging at the nearly exact spot where it was bogging at #80. My NT is on order WOOT, i just hope it's not the CDI or the magneto and I don't think it should be, but... we shall see.

Compared to my other bike with the Starfire Gen IIB this new bike is a little bit pingy, this engine has a higher pitch than my old one, of course the old one's muffler's endcap fell off and got run over a long time ago, and now has a coke can on the end of it.
 
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nightcruiser

New Member
Mar 25, 2011
1,180
2
0
USA
I keep stepping up the jet in size, but it keeps bogging at the same exact spot, about 5-10%, right now I am at a #72 main jet, I will keep you posted, it's bogging at the nearly exact spot where it was bogging at #80. My NT is on order WOOT, i just hope it's not the CDI or the magneto and I don't think it should be, but... we shall see.

Compared to my other bike with the Starfire Gen IIB this new bike is a little bit pingy, this engine has a higher pitch than my old one, of course the old one's muffler's endcap fell off and got run over a long time ago, and now has a coke can on the end of it.
My jet came from the factory at #72, ran like crap (SkyHawk GT5 66cc), at #69 she roars! The adjustment that had the most effect on the idle and low throttle range was the float adjustment (for me). Do this simple test, warm up the bike then turn off the fuel valve (while running). See if that dead spot on the low end of your throttle livens up as the fuel level in your carb drops. If so, then adjust the float so the tab pushes up on the needle a slight bit more to lower the fuel level in the carb.
I am pretty sure you are looking at a carb issue, wouldn't guess it would be the ignition. NT carb will probably fix you up, but I know if the CNS carb can run great if the float is set properly and the jets are at #70 or a bit larger. Also, pull the air cleaner and make sure its not soaked in oil.
I am extremely happy with the way my CNS carb performs now that it is tuned, I can even start her up by simply lifting the rear tire and giving it a good spin....
 

Rambler

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Jul 25, 2009
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Breakthrough finding,

If I blow air through the little black tube with the engine running, engine revs higher when given throttle than if i let the black tube remain untouched. The only side effect of blowing through the tube is that i see gas trickling out the intake when i blow through the black tube.
 
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nightcruiser

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Mar 25, 2011
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Breakthrough finding,

If I blow air through the little black tube with the engine running, engine revs higher when given throttle than if I let the black tube remain untouched. The only side effect of blowing through the tube is that I see gas trickling out the intake when I blow through the black tube.
It seems it would be very tough to blow through that little black tube while the engine was running, don't know why you would do that, but lets try to use that info to help us. Doing that could only put pressure inside the bowl of the carb, which I think would force more fuel through the carb than the vacuum from the engine alone. One would think this extra supply of gas would make the engine rev higher as you describe.
Thing is, the clear tube that comes from the bottom of the carb is a vent, inside that vent connects to a tube that rises up above the fuel level in the carb (or it is supposed to be above the fuel level). If this vent is above fuel level and not clogged then the air you blow through the black tube should just come out the vent tube, if the fuel level in the carb is too high then you would get gas coming out of the overflow tube (since the fuel level is up above the top of the vent tube). If you get fuel out of the overflow tube when you blow through the black tube then you definitely need to adjust your float. Actually, if you ever get fuel coming out of the vent tube you need to adjust your float or fix a non sealing needle valve. I would check the vent tube to make sure it is not clogged, someone had said their vent tube came clogged from the factory. With the carb off and drained of gas try blowing through the VENT TUBE that comes from the bottom of the carb, if you can not blow through it then you need to open up the vent tube so it can vent your carb. I would look into where that fuel is coming from when you blow, if it is not coming from the vent tube then wherever it is coming from is probably an air leak....
One note about the black tube, some people say pulling this tube from the air filter made their engines run great, I tried it (before I adjusted my float and jetted the carb) and it made no improvement for me so I put it back. After I tuned the carb and had her running great through the entire throttle range with good idle and top speed over 35MPH I decided to pull the black tube again and see what effect it had. Much to my surprise I dropped off about 10MPH from the top speed and the engine was not running as well with the black hose disconnected. A short while later I put the black tube back into the air filter and she started running great again and the top 10MPH were recovered. So it seems, at least the way my carb is tuned, the black tube does do something and it is beneficial. I think carbs that are not tuned well, or tuned different, or perhaps at different sea level react to changes in this tube differently.
IMHO you are most likely fuel starved in that dead band of throttle. I used this simple trick to prove to myself that my engine was fuel starved in different throttle ranges. Warm up the bike, get rolling and pull the throttle into the range where it boggs. While bogging pull out the choke lever (which will allow extra gas through the carb rather than restricting air flow like a regular choke). If the engine jumps to life at the dead spot after you pull out the choke then you need more fuel in that throttle range. If it gets worse then you probably have too much fuel and need to do a float adjustment. You could also do a plug chop while the engine is bogging and then see if the plug is wet (flooded) or dry (fuel starved). In that lower throttle range it is possible that either condition could cause your bog....
Don't give up man, keep pushing and experimenting with it. I was at my wits end a couple times with the carb but after adjusting the float back and forth, fixing up air leaks and finally opening up my main jet I finally got what I wanted from this carb..... Good luck to you, I will be glad to help in any way I can....
 

Rambler

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Jul 25, 2009
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When I blow into the tube, the gas doesn't come out the vent tube, it comes out the little hole, maybe 1/8inch in diameter just below the main intake port.


 

Rambler

New Member
Jul 25, 2009
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If i plug the hole designated in the diagram, the carb works like a champ!!!! WOOT WOOT WOOT I FOUND IT WOOOOT!!!!

Thanks to all who gave me input and advice.
 
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nightcruiser

New Member
Mar 25, 2011
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If i plug the hole designated in the diagram, the carb works like a champ!!!! WOOT WOOT WOOT I FOUND IT WOOOOT!!!!

Thanks to all who gave me input and advice.
Congrats on getting it worked out, I knew if you kept at it you would conquer... CNS carb is tough, but not impossible....