The Rise of the Electronaut's

for sure-- the times they are a'changing

world in revolution -- somethings got'ta happen

a more ful, cooperative friendly world-- i only hope so

yet every day I read, listen and watch/learn of more and more incidents of cyber crime and devious behaviors
world-wide

This isn't the general forum either biknut.

lol

yah, this should jump over to electric thread section...

I think... it might just work, to send an email to Elon Musk and ask him to build electric bikes. Something additional to do with his new batteries.
It would sure help a lot of people.
rc

That sounds about right.

You know one thing that we probably will have to give up? 2 stroke engines.

The reason is that those who don't use them consider them to be 'dirty'. Never mind the fact that I can make a gallon of gasoline last as long as three weeks, making my engine much cleaner in the long run than the 'cleanest' autos. Even this sound logic won't sway people. We're gonna lose the two strokes and it's a shame.

Also, as cars get 'smarter' e.g.; communicating with each other and economizing on fuel usage, there'll be pressure to forbid vehicles that don't measure up to these standards.

Very high fuel prices, should they get high, can only help folks like us. (As far as our vehicles are concerned, that is. It'll hurt us in other ways, I know.) But as long as fuel is cheap, then we're in constant danger of being legislated right off the roads.

But I do still hope that the optimistic view in this thread comes true.

Whats a Gallon of Gas in the States and how many litres to a US Gallon
4.5?
We pay $1.70 a litre here ATM.

I just paid $3.799 for a gallon of 87.
1 gallon = 3.785 Metric liter = $1.003 per liter.
1 gallon = 4.54609 Imperial (UK) liter = $0.835 per liter.
I don't know which system you all use in Australia.

At $1.70 a liter it would be $6.4345 / Metric conversion per gallon.
Or $7.728 / Imperial conversion per gallon

I looked up the conversion on the 'net.

The huge divide in cost between a HT kit on a bike, or a KTM50 clone for that matter, and the cost of an electric bike which competes with their performance and range is the problem. I built my own electric motard with 8 hp from a Razor dirtbike, learned a lot about electrics in the process. It's not all awesome for consumers when you start to get to higher power levels considered adequate power, high voltages can kill, high amperages can melt things, electrical connections must be made with expensive connectors which don't melt down from dielectric breakdown or arcing, power transmission must be done with expensive copper wire, batteries that would give my bike it's current 6000W performance at 60V with 20Ah would cost well over $1200 plus a reliable BMS to keep them from toasting. Ideally I'd like a 40Ah battery pack and to do it with LiFePO4 it wouldn't be possible to draw enough amps, Lipo batteries freak me the heck out, with their possibilty to catch fire. Lipos tend to need removal from the bike and individual or parallel charging on special balancing chargers, while SLA's just need a simple scooter charger, LiFePO4 batts can use a simple style charger too. You need to wait a couple hours to charge up an electric bike, which is something difficult to do if you are trying to bum electricity off a business or other facility you are parking at, not to mention the risk of theft or vandalism goes up dramatically in such a vulnerable state.

Unless you're an a rich engineer, the whole electric thing is limited to few and far between if you want real power. There's a lot of electric cars up here in Marin, there are also a lot of rich people willing to pay too much to have "superiority" and jump on the hot new thing, they can definitely afford gas if they are willing to prepay their fuel usage for the next decade by buying a Tesla.

Hmmm.... I wonder if buying a few batteries out of a junked Prius, Leaf or Volt would work out well and save one some $$$ on a build? Or would it just create a headache trying to get a charger and BMS for them?

But compared to the cost of manufacturing a modern automobile there's no particular reason an electric car should cost more if the numbers of cars manufactured were equal.

Click to expand...

Well, if you actually look into the engineering involved, along with the rare earth materials needed to manufacture, there are fundamental setbacks for the proliferation of electric vehicles on a wide basis. Copper is expensive, so is Lithium, So is Cobalt, and of course the Gold needed for connectors. Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles need Platinum, Rhodium, and Palladium for their fuel cell reactors, so that's not a viable alternative either. Electric vehicles are typically made with advanced lightweight materials like composites like carbon fiber or at least unibodies made from aluminum to offset the battery weight, which are more costly to manufacture and repair (if you can find somebody qualified to do the repair). Rare earth elements in electric cars are mainly mined from the war-torn third world or Lithium mainly from China, and lightweight composite materials are very expensive due to their use mainly by the military in advanced aircraft, not to mention the specialized manufacturing techniques required to make finished products from them.

20 years ago I thought that the future would be a time of abundance and high technology applied to solving the world's fundamental problems and make cars more advanced while still being affordable. The reality is that economic and political turmoil, along with perpetual warfare, have created a false state of scarcity and have shifted the focus of the engineering community away from solving the fundamental problems facing society, and toward products tat are profitable, like cellphones and weaponry.

Until the world exits the current dark age and uses their knowledge and technology to bring these wonderful things to the public at a price affordable to the common man, the electrics will remain something reserved for short range commuters or the advanced ones like Tesla Model S's for the out of touch elite whom are looking to improve their image and coddle their heavily weighted consciences.

As for batteries out of a junked electric car, you could luck out and find a totalled Tesla maybe and separate out the prism cells and build a BMS, but the chances of it all being obtainable for a decent price and then working are a lot less than just buying brand new prism cells like A123's and having a spec sheet and support for building a system that works perfectly, which it has to or it won't last long.

Two strokes with a catalytic converter or a muffler packed with highly catalytic 316L pot scrubbers smell cleaner than any four stroke motorcycle I've had the displeasure of driving behind, Harleys being some of the worst smelling beasts ever. If you run pure castor oil as your premix at the expense of gunked cylinders and heads, the emissions are reduced even further, or you can choose to run a low concentration synthetic premix like Opti2 at 100:1 and avoid the gunk. The minimal emissions impact that two stroke bikes have on the environment versus diesel trucks and trains, and unregulated aircraft emissions, are negligible, and California lawmakers know that and therefore promote the use of small scooters and mopeds as an alternative form of transportation.

The big change needs to happen that shifts away from using expensive materials, although I don't see that happening anytime soon since the most efficient affordable conductor wire is copper, which is expensive, aluminum wire fatigues when flexed and causes failures, and the use of silver or gold for conductors obviously isn't going to get cheaper. Electric motors use pounds of copper windings, and rare earth neodymium or cobalt/ferrous magnets, also not cheap. Batteries, in order to be effective need to use highly reactive rare compounds for strong electrochemical reactions to take place and produce good power for power density on a bike, hence the high cost there.

Then there's the danger involved with high powered electrical systems, and the lack of general knowledge of the public of how to use them safely or service them. 60V and up can kill, high amp flow can burn internal organs, and batteries use caustic electrolyte solutions which can burn or melt skin on exposure. Systems hooked up incorrectly or charged incorrectly can cause shorts which can cause electrical fires and also can cause batteries to explode or burn if discharged rapidly.

Comparing that to the occasional pipe burn or spilled gasoline makes internal combustion engines seem relatively safe. Electrical components and systems must be designed to be completely idiot proof and also tamed down to a level where the average user can work on them and make mistakes with low risk, which means limiting the voltage, current flow, and therefore power output of a bike. That's why most bikes are at 48V or under, because at 60V things can get hairy pretty quick if there is a short or the user neglects to follow safe procedures building or servicing the bike. When they are all worked out well, the systems can be self sufficient and virtually maintenance free, but there are always situations out of the ordinary which can lead to bad things happening, the liability for which manufacturers tend to avoid at all costs.

All of these unavoidable facts about the serious nature of electrochemistry and high powered electrical systems means that it will take a lot of development for these types of things to become widespread, and there will need to be a trained service network for them because the average user of an electric bike is not up to the task of rooting around in its guts or modifying it. All this means money, a whole lot more money than most are willing to pay for a motorized bicycle or moped, when for a couple grand more you can buy an electric car or motorcycle which have established dealer networks.

For most folks looking for pedal assist, keeping it under 1500W and 48V avoids most of the problems, and the associated cost of when you need to upsize everything to make a safe system. Considering how most folks are looking to get more umph from their bikes and want to go as fast as possible, I don't see high powered electrics becoming popular, rather just specialized bikes which can be built or bought for a price commensurate with the components and engineering required to make them work. Maybe if they start mining asteroids and the moon, and rare elements become less valuable than they are today, or better cheaper materials out of common elements are discovered and mass produced, then high technology and high powered electrical devices which meet consumer product guidelines can be made for a reasonable price.

If I had $10K, the choice between a Ducati, Aprilia, GP bike, or a Zero or high powered electric bicycle, I'd probably pick a really nice superbike with nearly 200HP rather than an electric which has novel aspects but fails to meet all criteria for a practical and reliable all around bike, and can be serviced without the risk of getting blown across the room or burnt like corporal punishment if wires cross or you touch it the wrong way.

A hundred and sixty thousand here and 850 thousand in europe last year.

http://ecowatch.com/2013/11/06/electric-bike-sales-soar-worldwide/

They think it should about double each year.

Most of them are puny too, electric assist, not the rip snortin' machines generally built over here on motor bicycling. Generally if you want moped performance, you gotta pay motorcycle prices.

I'm waiting until some magical shift in the battery technology cuts the price of LiFePO4 in half at least before I move away from SLA's so that I can have decent range on my 6000 watt bike.