Expansion Chambers

GoldenMotor.com

Theon

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Jan 20, 2014
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This topic seems to come up fairly regularly, and with a poor choice of 'off the shelf' pipes that actually work, I've been working on a few different Pipes and believe this is where the latent power is lying in a two stroke motor, My results so far have been good with the torque pipe I built for the Goat, But I'm keen to try these KTM pipes out.
I've tried to keep the KTM pipes as close to original length as possible, but had to cut an inch or so from the 'Pro pipe' to get a neat fit without it looking too 'hacked up'. On the 'Dirt Bike' the pipe will be wrapped, to avoid me burning my self, but also to limit heat transfer to the head, with so much of the pipe so closely wrapped around it. But I love the look of the tight fit and the Puch head, although a standard center fire would make access to the spark plug easier.
It would be great for others to post up some more pics of their set ups.
 

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maniac57

Old, Fat, and still faster than you
Oct 8, 2011
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I totally agree. Pipes available for these bikes seem to be a joke when it comes to REAL torque pipes.
I'm currently on the hunt for one of these KTM/KX pipes myself since I have plenty of room in My Pig frame for a nice fat chamber.
None of the chinese scooter/pocketbike pipes are anywhere near fat enough imho.
Seems to me theres a LOT of room for a decent retail chinagirl pipe if someone would only commit to fitting certain frames rather than the universal crap out there now. I'd do one for cranbrooks and one for conventional diamond frame mountain bikes. Bet the cranbrook version would sell like hotcakes!
 

graydog8josh

Member
Nov 23, 2012
450
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Starkville,MS
snake racing pipe from arrow its plenty fat. Its one reported as one of the fastest pipes for our motor. i wont even bother with the sbp pipe. i measured the outside diameter of the fattest section of the pipe and its 12.5" OD and the header is 14" long before teh spring joint thing where it conects to the cones. And... it has a muffler.

So if you hack up one of those ktm pipes, arent you still finding yourself with silencer issues? Why reinvent the wheel when someone has already invented it for you.

You could buy the snake pipe from jnm or ebay but ive been told its not the exact same pipe. Someone who has it can get measurements and tell me if it is. But you still will have to hack it up to get it to fit.

I can take more measurements. I think thats the only way anyone is going to know which pipe is better or worse. Probably ID measurements instead of OD.
 

graydog8josh

Member
Nov 23, 2012
450
4
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Starkville,MS
im assuming this must be the "snake" pipe? i checked arrows site and did not find anything labled snake.

http://www.jnmotorsbikes.com/product_p/jnm1105.htm
"Arrow’s racing snake pipe. This pipe has been extensively race tested and proven for optimal results. These pipes came out to be the winners.
- As shown in the photo, each engine with the pipe is mocked up and assembled in a frame jig to ensure a good fit and easy assembly. The jig that is used is a Schwinn style cruiser frame."

its shown with teh racing engine.


its there. he may not want to sell one to you though.
 

SmallEngineLover

New Member
Aug 1, 2014
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San Diego, CA
Here is my first attempt. I started with the baffle cone (last cone of a expansion chamber) from a old pipe that came with a shifter kart i bought and used it as the first cone (i think they are called taper cones). And then i had to make the header out of 1" piece of tubing. I match ported the origional exhaust manifold from the stock pipe that came with the kit but i should have just made a new one cause it was really hard to weld. I made the baffle cone out of 22 gauge sheet metal, should have used 18 gauge but i dont have acess to the proper tools to roll the metal. I had my dad help me weld the cones together (super thin). The tube that goes to the scilencer is 7/8" i believe. The blue tube is temparary untill i can get around to making a tube that will fit, it was WAY too loud without the scilencer, and the neigbors were very happy that i added it. 75% of the noise comes from the gears where the clutch is so ill be re greasing those and doing some research on how to fix that.

I really was looking for a mid to bottom end pipe because the area i live in is very busy so i dont want to go 40+mph, 25 is fine for me.

The pipe actually worked really well for not using software to design the pipe.it really helped the bottom end, and it helped the top end as well. The throttle response is way quicker and im glad it doesnt fall on its face like a big expansion chamber would be expected to do. The chamber is alittle big, but i will be experimenting and changing the lengths and diameters to see how it improves

Just got it running and i need to mess with the c clip in the carb. I can get a pov riding vid if there is intrest, because im new to the 65cc motors so i dont know how it would conpare to those "speed" and "fast" pipes offered by some venders (they dont really impress me compared to used 65cc and 80cc dirt bike pipes)

also, this pipe only really cost me $8 for some sheet metal and some supplys for the tig welder, but im pretty happy how it turned out

the calipers show how thin the metal was
 

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Theon

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Jan 20, 2014
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I'd love to see some photos of your pipe.
For low down, anything less restrictive than the standard pipe is going to help.
For mid range a long tapering header/ diffuser and a bit of belly is the trick.
The snake pipe does look to have reasonable dimension's, and it would be interesting to cut one up and reconfigure it to a more compact design, but I think it looks to be a little more top end orientated compared to the likes of a Jag Torque pipe.
My torque pipe gives great Mid range grunt, but tends to not let the motor rev out past the high 8000's, which is fine, kind of like a rev limiter.
My two KTM pipes come on a bit later, with the bigger pipe hitting max power from 8 to 9000 RPM and easily pushing past 10 000.
The Smaller KTM pipe is probably my favorite, it's not to loud, was $80 delivered with silencer, hits 10 000 RPM and gives good power all the way.
The unplated finish makes for easier touch ups after modifications and it wasn't to bad to weld.
 

SmallEngineLover

New Member
Aug 1, 2014
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San Diego, CA
i dont have an rpm gauge on this engine, im thinking about getting one of those hour meter/rpm gauges online for like 50 bucks. ive heard that these spin around 5,000 or so with stock pipe. I know with an aftermarket pipe they should spin more, but ive heard that they cant really take alot of rpms because the quality isn't there like a morini (i used to have a lem)

I also looked into ktm and other motocross pipes, and i did some research on the section i used out of my go kart pipe, and it was actually part of a 80cc dirt bike pipe that was modified to fit a 125, which gave the 125 massive amouts of top end because of the skinny chamber/belly

this pipe i made has a diameter of about 4 to 4 1/2 inches at its widest point

BRAKES ARE NEXT. before i do any top speed runs the stock coaster brake is not going to hold up so i need to adress that.
i still have to "jet" the carburator and im watching to make sure it doesnt get too hot becasue the header might be alittle too short.

What kind of head temps and exhaust temps are average for these engines?

Thanks for the help theon, -Austin
 
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Theon

New Member
Jan 20, 2014
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Depends on what head your running and ambient temps.
I find angle fire heads run a little hot at over 150 deg C.
Although I'm told it's OK to go to 180 deg C.?
My straight fire heads usually run just above 130 C.
My Puch heads even less, usually staying below 130 C.
I havn't bothered with header temps as yet.
I find a pipe makes it easier to tune the carb, as you get a much more pronounced 4 stroke when rich.
 

SmallEngineLover

New Member
Aug 1, 2014
10
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San Diego, CA
Ok thanks for the info, my temps are similar to yours, but i mix a high octane race gas with regular pump gas 50/50 so it helps with the hot summer weather. I also mix my oil at a ratio of 28:1 which is too much oil but im still on the break in period so im going to mix it at 32:1 after the break in.

Also, have you heard about flipping the head around so the bottom of the spark plug is pointed in towards the air intake? I wouldnt think it would make a difference but maybe it would burn clearner? Mine came the same way as pictured above i just took it apart to clean all the ports of any excess casting metal.

Thanks, -Austin
 

Theon

New Member
Jan 20, 2014
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FNQ Australia
I just got your photos, it looks good, probably a little short for max mid range torque, but a nice fit, and nice welds.
I believe the angle fire head works best the way you have it. Some, including my self have spun it for frame clearance. Once you start raising compression and trying to get a bit more out of these motors the angle fire tends to run too hot.
The straight fire also gives better torque.
 

SmallEngineLover

New Member
Aug 1, 2014
10
0
0
San Diego, CA
You are correct about the header being short, when i added the blue tube and scilencer it helped with bottom end but i couldnt have a longer heafer due to clearance issues (it would have been better to have the longer header to avoid sucking unessisary hot air back into the chamber)

The problem i have here is that i am using a 24" bike frame which was a challenge to fit this engine into, and the pipe was even more challenging, but we got it to work. Since these bikes are a newer hobby for my dad and myself, we thought it would be fun to try to make a pipe before buying one. A good 65cc dirt bike pipe would have worked better but like I said before im happy with it for now. A good friend of mine has alot of two stroke experiance so he gave me some general gidelines about constructing the pipe. Its not
Perfect, but it works alot better than stock.

Slightly off topic again, but do you have experiance with modifying these engines heavily? Ive seen some do alot of mods like honda pistons, ballenced cranks (i have one of those) high compression billet heads, reed valve, boost bottle, big carb, and so on.
But how do these motors hold up to mods? I know they arent the best quality, and i always run good oil and do a good break in, as well as letting my motors warm up before abuse. I just dont want to get carried away.

I also am going to re-inforce the rear engine mount it is moving around

Sorry for all the questions, it can be tricky to find relyable answers sometimes
 
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Theon

New Member
Jan 20, 2014
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FNQ Australia
I have two reed valved motors, one a custom made case induction with hand made 4 petal (2 pair of carbon pocket bike) reeds.
The other a 4 petal RSE,
The smaller (2 petal) RSE reed is probably a little small, but the 4 petal will need a barrel with the wider inlet stud spacing.
I'm very happy with the performance of both, although both are new builds and not yet broken in.
Both are running KTM pipes, higher compression, bigger carbs, boost ports, reworked transfer ports and huge exhaust ports.
The reeds can really improve the low and mid range to a modified motor and if big enough still allow 10 000+ RPM's and top speeds in excess of 50MPH when mated with a decent pipe.
I think your pipe would complement a decent reed well. And with a few mods to the barrel and piston, will give some awesome power, but you may want a reed to restore your lower end, if porting for those sort of revs, If your crank is balanced, I'd make the most of it. I have 3 cranks that will happily do 10 000, none of the others would, one got to 9500, just.
Doing a few mods and getting your max power at 8000 odd RPM is a lot of fun and probably netting twice the power of a standard motor. It's also likely to get you a gutless bottom end with out reeds.
If however your not concerned with top end , reeds aren't going to make a huge difference to a standard properly port timed motor, but will improve a motor that has had the inlet timing extended.
As for bigger carbs, Probably depends on the level of tune, Speed carb is fine for all but highly tuned/modified motors.
I like the adjustability of Walbro style carbs, a bit more work setting up, but heaps quicker to tune/retune.
As to how they take abuse, keep the temperature down!, keep the carb tuned right, use good quality oil, keep a spare mag!, check for loose nuts and bolts and give'm a good thrashing, they're cheap fun, parts are cheap, they are easy to rebuild, fun to modify and scary fast if you do the right mods.
I have 4 bikes, two highly modified, 2 more mildly modded, even the mildly modded ones are probably quite a bit faster than a standard angle fire motor, and will do 40MPH+
Without sacrificing low down, so for most people, this is likely enough. It's not to hard to do with simple porting, getting compression right, a better exhaust helps and the standard carb is totally adequate.
Starting with a good bottom end is probably the most important thing influencing the reliability of a 'tuned' motor.
And I wouldn't trust it out of the box from China.
Investing in a 40mm stroke bottom end, stripping it, checking it over properly and building the motor from scratch is the best way to get a reliable engine, others have obviously had better luck than me, but the only motor I have that did not require stripping before running is from 'Screaming Roo' and it cost twice a China Girl. But is sweet.