Tubeless Tires: Add your 2 cents here.

miked826 · Jul 17, 2013

bigbutterbean said:
Ok you've made your point. Enough debating. I really think you should try it. Then you can prove the rest of us wrong when it works.

I'm gonna but I gotta change my tires out for some Duro Razorbacks. The tires I have now are too dangerous to go tubeless. When they go flat that practically fall off the wheel. I can't be on that bike without tubes in those tires. I'm not that brave. LOL

mew905 · Jul 17, 2013

yep, tubeless tires use harder walls to stay on the rim until nearly 100% flat, which is usually more than enough time to react. Bicycle tires are held on purely by the pressure of the tube pushing out, and the bead hanging on. If I could go tubeless, I would, but I have no idea how I'd go about it, the tutorials are kinda vague for newbies. (or maybe I like too many specifics).

Also I think bicycle wheels use tubes because its cheaper for maintenance. Blow a tire, $6 and 15 minutes to change out (depending on the bike and your skill). Blow the treaded part, a "quick fix" may be possible, but its ~$20+ to fix. You also gotta remember I dont think manufacturers expect the majority on bikes to be too far away from a place they have the tools to fix the tires.

miked826 · Jul 17, 2013

mew905 said:
yep, tubeless tires use harder walls to stay on the rim until nearly 100% flat, which is usually more than enough time to react. Bicycle tires are held on purely by the pressure of the tube pushing out, and the bead hanging on. If I could go tubeless, I would, but I have no idea how I'd go about it, the tutorials are kinda vague for newbies. (or maybe I like too many specifics).

Also I think bicycle wheels use tubes because its cheaper for maintenance. Blow a tire, $6 and 15 minutes to change out (depending on the bike and your skill). Blow the treaded part, a "quick fix" may be possible, but its ~$20+ to fix. You also gotta remember I dont think manufacturers expect the majority on bikes to be too far away from a place they have the tools to fix the tires.

I got an e-hub and Lithium batteries mounted over my back wheel that weigh nearly 35 lbs altogether. I changed a flat one time to that wheel and had to call for help just to get the wheel off, as I only have 2 hands. LOL

Inserting a tar plug into a hole in a tire and adding air is just too good for me to pass up.

miked826 · Jul 19, 2013

mew905 said:
yep, tubeless tires use harder walls to stay on the rim until nearly 100% flat, which is usually more than enough time to react. Bicycle tires are held on purely by the pressure of the tube pushing out, and the bead hanging on. If I could go tubeless, I would, but I have no idea how I'd go about it, the tutorials are kinda vague for newbies. (or maybe I like too many specifics).

Also I think bicycle wheels use tubes because its cheaper for maintenance. Blow a tire, $6 and 15 minutes to change out (depending on the bike and your skill). Blow the treaded part, a "quick fix" may be possible, but its ~$20+ to fix. You also gotta remember I dont think manufacturers expect the majority on bikes to be too far away from a place they have the tools to fix the tires.

I noticed that farm tractors and other slow moving heavy vehicles also use inner-tubes. What do they have in common with bicycles? All are traveling very slow in comparison to tubeless tired vehicles.

"In 2006, Shimano and Hutchinson introduced a tubeless system for road bikes but tubeless tires have not gained popular acceptance in road racing due to lack of sponsorship, the tradition of using tubular tires and the fact that tubeless set ups weigh more than top-of-the-line tubular wheelsets."

So the reason is solely because of weight issues? The weight savings on a motorized bicycle is laughable when you're not concerned about pedaling anyway. LOL

xseler · Jul 19, 2013

I remember when tubeless tires on automobiles were considered 'voodoo magic'.

miked826 · Jul 19, 2013

xseler said:
I remember when tubeless tires on automobiles were considered 'voodoo magic'.

I believe you. LOL

As soon as I get some stiff sidewall tires on my bike, I'm jumping headfirst off the tubular ship forever. It just doesn't make any sense for me to continue riding on tubes when I have the option to go tubeless and have the ability to practically fix flats on the fly.

I'll slime my tires with some Ultraseal military spec tire sealant and hopefully be done with flats and tubes. One less breakdown scenario to worry about.

http://www.gemplers.com/product/G64511/GEMPLERS-Ultraseal-Tire-Sealant-Commercial-grade-1-gallon

bigbutterbean · Jul 19, 2013

You know the tubes that come pre-filled with slime will seal any puncture or pinch flat up to 1/8 of an inch. I know that a few guys here on the forum have run over major debris like roofing nails and drywall screws, and slime isn't going to do much good against that. But in 3 years, I've only had a few flats, and none of them were from running over anything. One was caused by the sidewall on my rear tire wearing through, which happens after almost two years (it was a great tire, the specialized hardrock'r, got it for 1/3 of the original price and it lasted a very long time until that sidewall gave out). Another was caused by over-inflating with a pinch flat, and another was caused by improper tire installation when I installed a new tire (the one that replaced the specialized tire, in fact). Here is the thing. Slime tubes won't prevent all flats, but it will drastically reduce the occurrence of them, and its easier and cheaper than going tubeless. I get that the tubeless valves are only $16 apiece, but you still have to buy stronger tires and you also have to seal your rim. Slime tubes are $9 apiece, and no other modifications are necessary. Like I said, only 3 flats in 3 years with slime tubes for me. Just giving you another option to consider here.

miked826 · Jul 20, 2013

bigbutterbean said:
You know the tubes that come pre-filled with slime will seal any puncture or pinch flat up to 1/8 of an inch. I know that a few guys here on the forum have run over major debris like roofing nails and drywall screws, and slime isn't going to do much good against that. But in 3 years, I've only had a few flats, and none of them were from running over anything. One was caused by the sidewall on my rear tire wearing through, which happens after almost two years (it was a great tire, the specialized hardrock'r, got it for 1/3 of the original price and it lasted a very long time until that sidewall gave out). Another was caused by over-inflating with a pinch flat, and another was caused by improper tire installation when I installed a new tire (the one that replaced the specialized tire, in fact). Here is the thing. Slime tubes won't prevent all flats, but it will drastically reduce the occurrence of them, and its easier and cheaper than going tubeless. I get that the tubeless valves are only $16 apiece, but you still have to buy stronger tires and you also have to seal your rim. Slime tubes are $9 apiece, and no other modifications are necessary. Like I said, only 3 flats in 3 years with slime tubes for me. Just giving you another option to consider here.

Why would you slime a tube when you could slime the tire instead never need to replace a tube ever again? Tube slime is not a permanent fix for tube. Ain't no way I would continue riding on that inner tube and trust the slime to continue to seal the hole. The cost to go tubeless will pay for itself many times over in the long run. The tubeless valve stems are $8 a pop (less than the cost of 1 thorn resistant tube and that valve stem will probably outlast the entire bike).

From Slimes own website:

"Slime is not guaranteed to seal gashes from glass or metal, bead leaks, sidewall punctures or pinch flats. Be sure to check your valve to ensure air loss is not occurring at this source."

PINCH FLATS. 2 words synonymous with tube tires. If you have a very very slow leak while already riding then you will ultimately have a Pinch Flat in a tube tire. And there's nothing you could do to prevent it if you don't notice the very slow leak before you ride. It will go unnoticed, undetected until it's too late.

xseler · Jul 20, 2013

This is just my two cents......

I consider my motorized bike a throw-back to simpler times......times when things needed an occassional repair. A time when you spent the time to repair instead of replace. A time when dirty hands signified a job well done. A time when you expected things to break periodically and you didn't really mind when they did.

I enjoy 'tinkering' with my bike almost as much as riding it. The uncertainty of having a flat just adds to the adventure when taking a short trip. I don't rely on my bike and that's just fine with me.......it helps to remind me of simpler times.

Mark

bigbutterbean · Jul 20, 2013

I don't fill the tubes with slime, they come pre-filled. You can slime your own tubes, but I dont want to dick around with it. I was just trying to give you an alternative to trying to convert your spoked wheel to tubeless. Take it or leave it, brother. Its not a debate. I like the setup I've chosen. If you want to go a different route, fine. Don't try to make somebody feel stupid for giving you advice.

miked826 · Jul 20, 2013

bigbutterbean said:
I don't fill the tubes with slime, they come pre-filled. You can slime your own tubes, but I dont want to dick around with it. I was just trying to give you an alternative to trying to convert your spoked wheel to tubeless. Take it or leave it, brother. Its not a debate. I like the setup I've chosen. If you want to go a different route, fine. Don't try to make somebody feel stupid for giving you advice.

Simply pointing out known facts regarding inner tubes, slime (whether pre-installed or not) and the actual cost of going tubeless versus the perceived cost. Cost can not possibly be considered as a reason to stay with inner tubes as they are obviously more costly over time..... and in more ways than just monetary.

I had my bike for a little over a year. I had 1 two inch nail shaft impale my tire, 1 pinch flat, 1 cheap inner tube spontaneously explode while the bike was unoccupied and 1 tube that was flattened by the corner lip of a tire liner (that was supposed to prevent flats). Don't even get me started on "Tire Liners". All this costly worthless crap invented to "protect" the inner tube.

Call me crazy for wanting to get away from something that only pedal bicycles and farm tractors still use. LOL

bigbutterbean · Jul 20, 2013

Not calling you crazy. You asked for people's opinions, I gave you mine. Slime tubes have proven much more reliable to me than tubes without them. i spent more money and less time riding before switching to tubes. With my luck, I wouldn't seal my rim properly and converting to tubeless wouldn't work out for me, then I'd have spent a bunch of money for nothing and also not be able to ride my bike. I rely on my bike to get back and forth to work, so I went the route that was easiest for me, which is slime tubes. Its obvious that you feel that tubeless is the way to go for you, and thats fine I respect that. I was just trying to point out why I myself like the slime tubes. Thats all.

miked826 · Jul 20, 2013

bigbutterbean said:
Not calling you crazy. You asked for people's opinions, I gave you mine. Slime tubes have proven much more reliable to me than tubes without them. i spent more money and less time riding before switching to tubes. With my luck, I wouldn't seal my rim properly and converting to tubeless wouldn't work out for me, then I'd have spent a bunch of money for nothing and also not be able to ride my bike. I rely on my bike to get back and forth to work, so I went the route that was easiest for me, which is slime tubes. Its obvious that you feel that tubeless is the way to go for you, and thats fine I respect that. I was just trying to point out why I myself like the slime tubes. Thats all.

No, I here ya loud and clear. I was just wondering why tubeless never caught on in the bicycling/motorized bicycle world and all I could find online was because of the added weight of the tire needed and the whole weight of tubeless setup as a whole.

All the money I spent on liners, thorn resistant tubes and slime and somehow I found a way to defeat all of those methods combined without trying to on Los Angeles streets. The nail shaft went clean through the tire, the tire liner, the thorn resistant tube and the slime like none of those even existed.

My bike seat is abnormally mounted way to the rear almost directly over the rear tire and I'm almost 200 lbs plus the weight of 20lbs of lithium ion batteries/ammo cans and a 16lb electric hub. My back tire is screaming bloody murder every time I ride and just looking for an excuse to go flat on me.

The only concern I have with going tubeless is how the slime will or wont affect the sealant tape that's wrapped around the bike rim. Will it degrade the tape or the tapes stick that seals the spoke holes or won't it? I guess it won't be a mystery for long. LOL

The_Aleman · Jul 20, 2013

maniac57 said:
<snip>
Not better at preventing flats in a street setting.

lol? Did you really just say that? Stan's is astounding, I know quite a few crazy pedalers that swear by it, and some of them go speeds on their bikes that I wouldn't on mine!
Most of them haven't got a flat since they switched to it, the longest being about 5 years ago. I'd switch to it if I wasn't happy with the tubes and method I'm using.

I pedaled over 100K miles on tubes that I Slime'd myself between 1989 and 1997, perhaps another 45-50K since. My longest stretch without a "real" flat has been 15K miles,
or ~18 months of riding at the time. I say "real" flat because when one is running 6-8oz of Slime in a good-quality tube with a properly done rim strip, those tubes are like the Terminator. They may bleed, but you can pump em back up and keep rolling most the time. I've had Slime'd tubes with over 20 punctures live for years, outliving the tires in instances.

Before I switched to Slime, I practically had to patch every 100 miles or less, even with the decent anti-puncture liners I used.

Stan's Notubes system is pretty much like Slime for your tire. The main difference is the rim strip, it's a high-end piece. Rim strips are extremely important on our wheels whether we are running tubes or not! The secret ingredient is mainly latex, it's the predominant ingredient in Slime and Michelin's formula they use in their Protek Max tubes.

miked826 · Jul 22, 2013

Just ordered the Tubeless valve stems. I'll stick 1 of them in the front tire and lose the front tube until I get new tires and then stick the other in the back tire. I'm only half crazy for now. LOL

steampunk · Jul 22, 2013

im a pretty serious offroad cyclist/racer that just so happens to love motor assisted bicycles as well. i run tubless on my mtn bike and soon my road bike as well. the biggest issue that i see and have had with tubless (i work at a bike shop too) is the first burst of air to seat the tire to the rim... without a specific tubless rim this can be even more difficult. Its hit or miss with Co'2 cartridges but can be done. The ride difference and weight savings were totally worth the hassle on the mtb (pedals). Way more grip and the tire could flex and movew the way they were supposed to, as opposed to the tube setup where you have 2 walls of rubber trying to move independently. I have not tried them on the motor assisted bicycle...yet but i am def interested in knowing the outcome. Dunno if that helps or not, just what i have encountered while running tubless myself

P.S. my biggest tip is to carry a tube just in case...its saved me from walking back a few times (walking=kitty/bear food where i ride)

Stans kits seem to be the best...american classic makes some amazing valvestems and gorrilla tape has worked to seal up some weird stuff and worked...a surly fat bike for example (shop owner rides that way)

steampunk · Jul 22, 2013

miked826 said:
Just ordered the Tubeless valve stems. I'll stick 1 of them in the front tire and lose the front tube until I get new tires and then stick the other in the back tire. I'm only half crazy for now. LOL

the bottle may say mount tire..then pour in sealant through valve stem...try putting the bead on one side of the rim like your taking the tube out but not taking the tire all the way off, pour the sealant in at this point. it is the way that all the shops ive worked at and been in do it..seems to work better. as well wet the bead of the tire down with little dabs/film of the sealant..helps the chances of hooking the first time. A tow strap around the tire can help when a bead just dosent want to seat on the rim.

the first time mounting up a tire thats going to be tubless ..add a little extra sealant...the tire is going to soak some of it up and may "weep" through the tire in some spots...as long as its not pouring/spraying out its normal for the first and sometimes second inflation

miked826 · Jul 22, 2013

steampunk said:
im a pretty serious offroad cyclist/racer that just so happens to love motor assisted bicycles as well. i run tubless on my mtn bike and soon my road bike as well. the biggest issue that i see and have had with tubless (i work at a bike shop too) is the first burst of air to seat the tire to the rim... without a specific tubless rim this can be even more difficult. Its hit or miss with Co'2 cartridges but can be done. The ride difference and weight savings were totally worth the hassle on the mtb (pedals). Way more grip and the tire could flex and movew the way they were supposed to, as opposed to the tube setup where you have 2 walls of rubber trying to move independently. I have not tried them on the motor assisted bicycle...yet but i am def interested in knowing the outcome. Dunno if that helps or not, just what i have encountered while running tubless myself

P.S. my biggest tip is to carry a tube just in case...its saved me from walking back a few times (walking=kitty/bear food where i ride)

Stans kits seem to be the best...american classic makes some amazing valvestems and gorrilla tape has worked to seal up some weird stuff and worked...a surly fat bike for example (shop owner rides that way)

Yep that first burst of air was the same thing on my mind as well especially on a thinned skinned sidewall. If I can do away with tubes and liners and having to remove my back wheel (which weighs a ton and needs 2 people to change) to repair a flat then I'll be more than happy.

I need to get a spare tube and start carrying it which I've never have done yet for some reason. I'll get one today. LOL

miked826 · Jul 25, 2013

Stan's Presta tubeless valve stem is now installed to front tire. Removed tire and liner and checked rim strip for holes or cuts. Attempted to inflate and realized my air compressor had nothing to grab on to. Seems I forgot to buy a Presta-Schrader adapter that I never new existed? LOL

I'm gonna attempt to see if it can hold air with only a tight standard rim strip installed and nothing else.

maniac57 · Jul 25, 2013

The_Aleman said:
lol? Did you really just say that? Stan's is astounding, I know quite a few crazy pedalers that swear by it, and some of them go speeds on their bikes that I wouldn't on mine!
Most of them haven't got a flat since they switched to it, the longest being about 5 years ago. I'd switch to it if I wasn't happy with the tubes and method I'm using.

I pedaled over 100K miles on tubes that I Slime'd myself between 1989 and 1997, perhaps another 45-50K since. My longest stretch without a "real" flat has been 15K miles,
or ~18 months of riding at the time. I say "real" flat because when one is running 6-8oz of Slime in a good-quality tube with a properly done rim strip, those tubes are like the Terminator. They may bleed, but you can pump em back up and keep rolling most the time. I've had Slime'd tubes with over 20 punctures live for years, outliving the tires in instances.

Before I switched to Slime, I practically had to patch every 100 miles or less, even with the decent anti-puncture liners I used.

Stan's Notubes system is pretty much like Slime for your tire. The main difference is the rim strip, it's a high-end piece. Rim strips are extremely important on our wheels whether we are running tubes or not! The secret ingredient is mainly latex, it's the predominant ingredient in Slime and Michelin's formula they use in their Protek Max tubes.

Here in Memphis, the street is filled with drywall screws. roofing nails and large pointy stuff.
Slime does not help when you hit a three inch drywall screw.
It works best for smaller punctures in my experience.
I have never run tubeless because I see no reason to replace something that works and is easy to repair when needed.
I can fix a flat in under 15 minutes anywhere for pennies.Slime makes this impossible.
Tubeless costs more, is harder to service when needed, and requires harder to find materials when you need to redo it.
I'll stick with what works for me.

Tubeless Tires: Add your 2 cents here.

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Old, Fat, and still faster than you