few four stroke questions...

GoldenMotor.com
Status
Not open for further replies.

Jesse002100

Member
May 1, 2010
48
0
6
Parma Ohio
well i got my first four stroke kit on the way now... after i built 3.5 2 strokes and almost have the occ build done i got a four stroke from bicycle-engines
49cc Complete Gas Powered Bicycle Engine Kit - $369.99
is there any main things before i install it any maintenance or adjustments???

i also bought the GT2 after alot of searching its the best bike to do i think hd axel, sprockets already on it, 3 brakes, front and rear v and rear drum, thicker frame and front suspension. and not to mention not having a ugly black tank on it the gt2 has a tank in frame .93 gallons :)

lastly is there any real good upgrades for the motor? exhaust, carb air box?

i think this one is going to be my new favorite when done...

thanks, Jesse
 

ocscully

New Member
Jan 6, 2008
373
1
0
Orange County, CA
Do a search here and at the other forum for "engager" in the 4-stroke section and read about this system on the Grubee gearboxes. In theroy its a good idea, but in practice it's a problem. Its designed to allow you to disengage the drivetrain when starting the motor and when you are ready to take off while the bike/motor is idleing you engage the lever and lock it and you can take off. What alot of people seem to do though is think of this system as a Clutch and IT IS NOT A CLUTCH! If you start engaging it above idle rpm things start breaking. You will find when reading the threads about this system that alot of people either reverse the action of the system so the gearbox is engaged unless you have the lever squeezed or as in my case have the system permantly engaged so it will not disengage at all.

As for bolt on performace up grades there is not currently much available. EZ Motorbikes has a Flex exhaust system that they claim increases the top end speed, and have posted teasers about a coming soon maybe HP 18mm carb. and HP exhaust system. Sick Bike Parts is working on aftermarket Air Filter Adapter and a exhaust system. They also have their new 4-Stroke Shift Kit.

ocscully
 

tyrslider

New Member
Sep 26, 2008
958
2
0
RainCity
AirFlow and ExFlow stuff is easy for any of these 4 smokes (more). Air in Air out (more). They, however, are not performance motors. if you want performance better to buy something w/ that in mind.

True though, it's fun too to see what can be made of 6(7, maybe 8):1 compression and 89 octane etc.

Good luck! Happy to help if I can!
 

MotorbikeMike

Dealer
Dec 29, 2007
477
3
18
Sacramento
Hi Jesse, EZM's flex exhaust adds some easy power, and a nice exhaust sound, I know I like mine, and others have had positive comments also!

Mike
 
Last edited:
Hi Jesse,

The EZM flex pipe added 2 MPH on the top end during recent dyno tests. The stock muffler is very restrictive, but does keep the noise down. The EZM flex pipe is REAL exhaust pipe with a smooth interior and was designed to work on 4-stroke motors.

The best way to increase power and let the motor "breath" is to make sure the exhaust is the correct length [resonate frequency] to allow the pulses to help pull the exhaust from the pipe.

As many know the cheapest and fastest way to add power to a car motor is with "Headers", so why would anyone not think it would help a 4-stroke motorbike motor?

You should aslo consider the HS or Honda 50 CC motors are in fact Hi Performance motors and can rev up to 8000 RPMs, and have a lot of "punch" for a small LEGAL motor. It is somewhat hard to believe some of the numbers because I have seen the Honda GHX50 rated with several different compression ratios, and the HP rating has ranged from under 2 HP to as high as 2.5 HP. I have seen the HS 142 motor as low as 1.6 HP and as high as 2.1 HP.

Because of the wild claims, EZM actually tested several motors on both the DYNO and speed "roller roads". We tested with several exhaust systems including, stock kit pipes, original box style muffler, striaght pipes, flex pipes, and even tuned "reverse cone" exhaust systems.

You get the most "bang for the buck" via a good exhaust system. Wanna add a little more "gusto", work with the exhaust.

Hope this information is helpful.

Have fun,
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jesse002100

Member
May 1, 2010
48
0
6
Parma Ohio
well i looked for the ezm exhaust for sale to see what it costs but i never had luck even when pricing out kits i could not find anything on the ezmotorbike site either.
has anyone else other than ezm dealers used there exhaust on here and what do they cost?
 

tyrslider

New Member
Sep 26, 2008
958
2
0
RainCity
So I guess it depends on how you define high performance. 'Cause I don't see 8000 rpm as a determining factor in high performance. My Ford Ranger revs to almost 8 grand, a stock Harley Sportster, a BMW flat twin, A Citroen. All these motors pack upwards of 10:1 compression, do 8 grand and aren't IMHO high performance motors.

BTW. Honda rates there own motor at 8:1 compression and 2.1 hp @ 7000 rpm and drops off after that. All others would be misinformed? Also Honda states at the bottom of their data page that your motor may not reflect the same #'s as their test model.

The Hondas and Washing (Hua Sheng) Machines are good motors but they are made for longevity and good performance not "high performance".

Anything built for longevity IMHO is not high performance.

I put 70 rear wheel HP to a Yamaha RD 350 2 smoke twin (stock is 35ish). It did 3rd gear wheelies! Have ridden bicycles avidly since I learned how at 5 yrs old. Ridden, raced and track dayed motorcycles since I was 16 yrs old (39 now). Been a machinist of sorts for 18 yrs.

I currently build thermal manikins (breathing, sweating, walking, temperature sensing etc etc) and thermal testing devices for large textile co's, a certain American motorcycle manufacturer, helmet manufacturers, glove manufacturers a certain Japanese car manufacturer that also makes a common 4 stroke motorbicycle motor, Major clothing manufacturers and so on for my day job. In fact we're making the skin for this robot

YouTube - PETMAN Prototype is alive

I love mechanical things, always have, but let it be known, I do not consider myself to be an expert; I'm an enthusiest and manufacturer of motorbicycle components! But also I think I bring a fair amt of experience to the table.

Use common sense, use common sense, use common sense, do your homework, and general consensis may not be entirely accurate but will not lead you astray. And be vary wary of motive lined misinformation!

Cheers!
 
Last edited:
Hi,

Here is some information many may find useful.

When comparing two horsepower four-stroke motors on a dynamometer, the motor with the greatest average power [wide power band] is the one that will typically work best for powering a single speed motorbike.

Additional factors that should be taken into consideration are, RPM range, torque & hp curves.

An excellent example is the Honda GHX50 motor because of the wide RPM range. The motor produces 2.2 foot pounds of torque at 4500 RPMs, but the torque doesn’t drop below 2 foot pounds until 7800 RPMs. Very strong torque numbers over a 3300 RPM range. The motor continues to produce additional hp all the way to 7000 RPMs, but doesn’t drop below 2 HP until it reaches 8000 RPMs. The HS 142 motor is very similar but available data suggests a slightly less powerful motor [our tests indicate the motors to be almost identical, however the HS manages to rev slightly higher].

One of the biggest differences in power output and performance was the exhaust system. Most kits contain a short pipe and small diameter I.D. A few still leave the “box” style muffler on the motor, but forgot to factor in several important concerns. The “box” style exhaust system wasn’t designed to operate in opposition to wind, and would be much safer if the exhaust was re-routed [when riding the exhaust is pushed by the wind towards the rider].

Exhaust systems cannot produce additional power on their own. The combustion efficiency and engine pumping processes is influenced by the exhaust system. The design objective for a high performance exhaust is to reduce engine-pumping losses, and by doing so, increase volumetric efficiency. The result of reduced pumping losses is more power available to move the motorbike. As volumetric efficiency increases, fuel mileage also increases because less throttle opening is required to move the motorbike at the same velocity.

A lot of confusion surrounds the issue of exhaust "back-pressure". Many performance-minded people who are normally very knowledgeable still cling to the old school concept.... "More back-pressure means better performance."

Facts indicate backpressure in an exhaust system decreases available engine power because of increased engine-pumping losses. It is true that a few motors are mechanically tuned to certain amount of backpressure and can show a loss of low-end torque when that backpressure is reduced. It is also true that the same motor with reduced backpressure can be re-tuned to show an increase of low-end torque with the same reduction of backpressure [often with a change in ignition timing]. Most importantly, maximum mid-to-high RPM power will be increased with the lowest possible backpressure. Period!

The ultimate engine modification is to maximize the proper air and fuel flow into, and exhaust flow out of the engine. The inflow of an air/fuel mixture is directly influenced by exhaust flow, particularly during valve overlap (when both valves are open].
One of the biggest issues with exhaust systems is the motor needs the highest flow volume possible throughout the mid-to-high range portion of the power band for maximum performance. This is where the problem starts, larger pipes flow better at higher RPMs and smaller I.D. pipes work better at lower RPMs creating a fundamental conflict. A smaller diameter exhaust pipe will provide higher flow velocity than a larger diameter pipe. Of course the laws of physics won’t allow that same small diameter pipe to flow sufficient volume to realize maximum power at higher RPMs. This is the paradox of exhaust dynamics and the solution is usually a compromise.

The most common mistake made by many is the selection of an exhaust system with pipes that are too large in diameter, too long, or too short for their engine's state of tune. Bigger is not necessarily better and is often worse. Shorter is often worse, as is too long.

All pipes are not equal, both inertial scavenging and wave scavenging will vary with I.D., and length, often dramatically. This, in turn, causes different tuning requirements between designs. "Tuning" does not mean installing a new sparkplug. It means configuring the correct components for maximum efficiency to work as a “team”.

Longer pipes typically produce more low-to-mid range torque than shorter pipes and it is torque that moves a motorbike. Where in the power band do you want to maximize the torque? Ever notice how long the EZM flex pipe is?
· Longer pipes increase power below the engine’s torque peak and shorter pipes increase power above the torque peak.
· Large I.D. pipes limit low-range power and increase high range power.
· Smaller I.D. pipes increase low-range power and limit high-range power.




Here is where the boys are separated from the men!
Inertial scavenging………..
Wave scavenging……..
Both impact exhaust system efficiency and affect each another.
Scavenging is simply gas extraction. These two scavenging effects are directly influenced by pipe shape, diameter, and length. When the exhaust valve opens, two things immediately happen. An energy wave, or pulse, is created from the rapidly expanding combustion gases. The wave enters the exhaust pipe traveling outward at a nominal speed of 1,300 - 1,700 feet per second. This wave is similar to a shock wave from an explosion. Simultaneous with the energy wave, the spent combustion gases also enter the exhaust system and travel more slowly at 150 - 300 feet per second. Considering the energy wave is moving about five times faster than the spent gases, it will get where it is going faster than the gases. When the outbound energy wave encounters a lower pressure area such as the muffler or the atmosphere, a reverse wave is reflected back toward the exhaust valve without significant change in velocity.

The reflected wave moves back toward the exhaust valve on a collision course with the exiting gases whereupon they pass through one another, with energy loss and turbulence, and continue in their respective directions. What happens as the reflected wave arrives at the exhaust valve depends on whether the valve is still open or closed. This is a critical moment in the exhaust cycle because the reversed wave can be beneficial or detrimental to flow, depending upon its arrival time at the exhaust valve. If the exhaust valve is closed when the wave arrives, the wave is again reflected toward the exhaust outlet and eventually dissipates in a back and forth motion [pulse]. If the exhaust valve is open when the wave arrives, its effect upon exhaust gas flow is only part of the problem as it can also alter the incoming fuel charge [wave scavenging].

An exhaust pipe of the proper length (for a specific RPM range) will place the wave’s anti-node at the exhaust valve at the correct time for it’s lower pressure to help fill the combustion chamber with fresh incoming charge and to extract spent gases from the chamber. This is called wave scavenging.

When gases move outward as a gas stream through the exhaust pipe, a decreasing pressure area is created in the pipe behind them [vacuum]. Think of this low-pressure area as a partial vacuum and visualize the lower pressure "pulling" exhaust gases from the combustion chamber. It also helps pull fresh air/fuel charge into the combustion chamber. This is called inertial scavenging and it has the largest effect on engine power at low-to-mid range RPM.
And that is how it all works!!!!!!!!


BTW I have 2 different PDF on Honda and one says 2.5 HP and the other says 2.1 HP, if anyone wants a copy let me know and I will email to them.


Hi Jesse,

The flex exhaust can be ordered from your nearest authorized dealer. We are currently out of stock as it is our fastest moving accessory, but shipments are in route.

Have fun,
 
Last edited:

tyrslider

New Member
Sep 26, 2008
958
2
0
RainCity
What a bunch clap trap! These are motorized bicycles, not alcohol funny cars!
Air in, air out. Pm me if I can help. I'm out.

Cheers!
 

tyrslider

New Member
Sep 26, 2008
958
2
0
RainCity
I currently build thermal manikins (breathing, sweating, walking, temperature sensing etc etc) and thermal testing devices for large textile co's

Thermal what?? Is that supposed to mean mannequin? Here's the link to Hooked on Phonics if anyone needs to learn how to read & spell. :):

Hooked on Phonics | Learn to Read with Award-Winning Educational Programs
Wake up! Get off the grape juice! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manikin

dance1
 

jbcruisin

Active Member
Oct 10, 2008
1,118
7
38
Lebanon, Pa.
Exhaust System Theory 101

The ethical thing to do when you borrow other peoples work is to credit them.

If you'd like to read the entire artical that Quenton "cherry picked" from follow the link.

Cheers!
Is that kind of like your "whisper drive" mysteriously resembling The EZ drive & not giving Mike & Quenton credit for developing it first?? Even the name "Whisper Drive" is very similar to the name for their first kit which was "silent drive". Are you going to change your idler setup to push down on the belt like they did too, and maybe mysteriously come out with a 2 speed after they release theirs?
 

Jesse002100

Member
May 1, 2010
48
0
6
Parma Ohio
well i for one just wanted a few questions answered not a brawl between companies, but if i have to add to this i would say. i like people borrowing available technology because it creates a battle between companies and thus helps the consumer by getting quality products at a cheaper price. the EZM kit is 200$ more then firebelly's and as jbcruisin said its almost the same design which they state is the best easiest of them all so why doesnt everybody buy from firebelly and solve the dilemma.

i quoted this so he couldn't edit it out
Is that kind of like your "whisper drive" mysteriously resembling The EZ drive & not giving Mike & Quenton credit for developing it first?? Even the name "Whisper Drive" is very similar to the name for their first kit which was "silent drive". Are you going to change your idler setup to push down on the belt like they did too, and maybe mysteriously come out with a 2 speed after they release theirs?
that is just my 2 cents
 

Bikeguy Joe

Godfather of Motorized Bicycles
Jan 8, 2008
11,837
252
63
up north now
I for one would love to see a battle of the titans....oh wait, then someone would have to copy thatsdaxs' design.....

Grow up and quit the bickering, or this thread will be gone as well as all the "advertising" you guys get for free in your posts about your latest contraptions.
 
Hi Evan,

Not sure why you seem to take my comments and information as personal, nor do I understand your motives. I never once mentioned your name or indicated you didn't offer options.

I did not indicate I discovered exhaust theory and was only passing on information about the importance of it. Not sure what your problem is and I wish you well.

I very much agree with Bikeguy Joe's comments about "grow up and quit the bickering" as there is no value to the MB industry.

I suggest this post be returned to the original purpose and respond to the original questions ask.

Have fun,
 

MotorbikeMike

Dealer
Dec 29, 2007
477
3
18
Sacramento
Hi Jesse, well it is a nice sunny day in North California! I was looking at your post, and cannot discern where you got your pricing info.

The EZM Q-Matic drive has an MSRP of 259.75, I dunno anyone who makes a drive for 59.75? The kit sans engine is a bit less that $400.00, the kit itself is readily priced out also.

Please be assured that I am not trolling here, just trying to offer clear info as to current pricing, and to clear up any possible mis-information.

Ride today! I will be building and riding myself!

Mike
 

Jesse002100

Member
May 1, 2010
48
0
6
Parma Ohio
i just see this... from one of your dealers.
EZ Motorbike of Lebanon: Welcome to EZ Motorbike of Lebanon
The suggested retail is $659. + shipping

and here on his site
Firebelly Cycles
At $440 (+sh) for his complete kit

i was speaking of a complete kit but if my math is correct
$659 ezm kit
$440 firebelly kit
-----
219$ more for you kit. and as you dealer above said its basically the same design minus the idler setup.

anyways it doesnt matter its like Pepsi and Coke the battle will wage on for ever.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.