Starting a Whizzer with an autoclutch

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itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
I just bought a 2006 Whizzer over the weekend. It's not running, so I assumed some risk but the price was right, so what the heck. The bike has the auto clutch.

It has just 450miles on it, yes it's a gamble if the engine has real trouble, but the bike is in pretty good condition cosidering price and I suspect the engine is sound. Other than a tank of bad gas and a broken lever assy on the left side, the bike looks like it was not abused. So after I clean out the bad gas and fix the control, I plan to fire it up and take it for a spin.

But I am curious, since it has the autoclutch, how do I start the darn thing? At start-up, the clutch should freewheel, right? If so, how I do I get the engine turning with a pedal start?

Rich
 

joabthebugman

New Member
Jun 21, 2010
347
0
0
ocoee fla
I don't have the auto clutch, but this may help

On My 2007 on the left hand grip, under the turn signal and horn controls, there is a small thumb lever
That is the compression relief lever, Thumb the lever forward and once you get it pedaling you release that lever
Pretty much the same as the China Girl clutch
 

cannonball2

Well-Known Member
Oct 28, 2010
3,682
221
63
Colonial Coast USA.
I start mine from the left side. Bring the pedal up to around 11 oclock, give it a good down thrust and release the compression release. A bike that is right will go in 2 kicks, the first a choke kick, and you should be off and running on the second. Give it about half throttle on the second kick This is all while on the center stand of course.
 

Fossil

New Member
Mar 15, 2008
228
2
0
Guthriesville Pa
The auto clutch has a one way bearing allowing you to use the pedals to start the bike as if it had a manual clutch. cannonball2 is correct with his starting procedure.

Jim
 

itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
A one way bearing... OK, now it makes sense.

I read a post from Quenton, either here or on that other MB forum about some trouble with certain vintage autoclutches. I believe mine is a Feb '06, hopefully that is one of the better units.

Thanks for the replies guys.

Rich
 
Sorry itchybird but all Whizzer automatic clutches have problems.

2001 auto clutch was geared badly and the shoes easily glazed and stopped working quickly.

2005 early NE clutch had a soft bearing ramp [no one told Joe in Tiawan that you can't run high speed needle bearings on a soft shaft] and the needles quickly ate the surface. Most of the first edition clutches also used pressed in pins to hold the shoes, and sadly no one told Joe they needed to be pressed in more than .250" into the hub, and seems they fell out. Problem is if they fell out or worked loose at speed, not much was left of the clutch to rebuild. [I can modify to eliminate the shallow pin system]. The early clutches had both the drive and secondary side made of cast iron.


2006 auto clutch had a hardened bearing sleeve [no one told Joe in Tiawan what hard meant] and the bearings quickly ate the bearing sleeve. But the drive side of the clutch was now made of aluminum instead of cast iron [a real improvement].

2007 auto clutch went back to a soft bearing surface but replaced the 3 section needle bearing with a single one way in the center and the outside bearings were now ball bearings. Sadly no one told Joe in Tiawan that the center bearing was still a NEEDLE bearing and still couldn't work on a soft bearing surface.

2008 auto clutch still used the failed bearing & sleeve system, however the guy in Tiawan [Joe] thought it would improve the operation to replace the 2 smaller bearing with 5. The reason the clutch went to 5 bearings was to avoid the problem of the clutch tightning the mounting bolt and destroying the smaller bearings [the mounting bolt is reversed threads and would turn and over tighten the clutch to the arm].

Late 2008 and present, seems too many clutches were made with the 70 MM or 50 MM pulleys, therefore the unsold clutch hubs were cut down and a 90 MM pulley was installed with roll pins [no one told Joe in Tiawan that roll pins wouldn't keep the pulley on the hub]. The pulley is steel and the hub is cast iron, meaning it is impossible to weld the sprocket to the hub.

The newer the clutch the worse it is, in fact I can't save the last edition versions because the center bearing hub has been cut so far back for the extra [un-needed] bearings and the replacement pulley the hub just "snaps" off the housing.


All clutches made from 2005 to early 2008 can be modified to last and work correctly. The hub must be machined to remove any excuse of a bearing sleeve and a Rockwell 58 rated sleeve machined [ground] and pressed on.

I use the modified clutches on all my new edition Whizzers including the "Wheelie" machine and the 70 MPH record setter.


Good news and bad news! I have been upgrading the clutch for $110.00, but the bearing sleeves had a major price increase and in Jan 2011 the price will be $125.00. Price does not include replacing extra bearings, or a clutch used until it is too late to rebuild. If the clutch is run too long it can destroy the main center bearing adding an additional $35.00.


Please don't take these comments as advertizing for work, just information on cost and the importance of upgrading sooner than later.

Have fun,
 
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itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
Thanks Quenton, for the detailed reply.

I now have not one, but two NE5 motors that will need some love. The first is a 2006 NE5 with 456 miles. This is a complete bike and I plan to make the mushroom lifter update and I will likely need a clutch update due to the miles on the bike.

The second motor is just that, a motor. it was pulled from a 2008 bike that had but 12 miles on it. I was hoping that I could get a few miles on that one before dumping any coin into it. It is slated to go into one of sportscarpats 'Flyer' frames. These are one of the coolest platforms anywhere for Whizzer drive lines.

As for the 2006 motor, it will need some of your work. I want to deck the head, advance the timing, bump the cam a tooth, and do the lifter update, and probably just go ahead and do the clutch update. I see Joe has the mushroom lifter and cam packages avail on that auction site. Whats the deal on those? Are they the later stock NE5 stuff, or has the quality fallen off on those as well? Do you have the alum carb spacers in stock? I'll be needing one of those as well.

Rich
 
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Hi itchybird,

First, always consider the problems with the Whizzer are the direct input of Joe Lin. The mushroom lifters are a perfect example. I sent several sets of American made lifters as a guide to what needed to be made. Of course the lifters he made were not even close to correct. First of all the American versions were hardened, his were very soft. Secondly the one I sent were lighter than the stock lifters, his weigh almost twice as much. Next I made the "mushroom" approx 1/8" in height, whereas his version was over 1/4", and in some cases the "mushroom" hit the bottom of the lifter bore at high RPMs. Many times the lifters won't fit in the case because the O.D. varies greatly, and some were even tapered. I have been re-working the Tiawan version and they have been doing well. I cut the base down, drill out the center and harden the lifter [$25.00 labor].

Both of your motors have the better camshaft, therefore no need to buy another camshaft, just replace lifters.

I do have the aluminum manifolds in stock, however he even managed to mess them up in the process. NONE of them are drilled correctly and the intake port is usually off as much as 1/4". When I sent the information concerning the manifold it was approx. 9/16" to 5/8" long, and in the process he managed to make it too long [effects mid range torque and top end].

It seems like no matter what, he had to make things differently to claim it was his design.

If one of your motors has the aluminum manifold, chances are it will also have the mushroom lifters and they can be modified to get the job done.

It is very important not to run a NE motor for a extended period unless it has the mushroom lifters. The very first NE motors had WC-1 lifters, and they quickly ate the camshaft lobes [total dustruction of the camshaft]. Instead of using the correct lifters [mushroom], he simply heated the lifters to make them soft. The soft lifters prolonged the life of the camshaft, however several issues became a major problem. One problem was the "softened" lifters wore quickly and became much shorter causing the clearance to change and the motor would run poorly. Another problem was the base of the lifters flared out, pieces broke off and found their way to the bearing in the motor case. Can you say "major damage"? The shorter lifters and the increased clearance would cause the lifters to slam against the valve stem and flare the bottom of the valve stem.

Good news! Once the motors are modified they do well and become very durable. Once the minor issues are addressed, the motor will give you a lot of trouble free service.

One serious problem to consider on the very late motors is the condition of the aluminum in the cylinder. They weren't tempered correctly and the head bolt threads "shear". If the cylinder is re-cured before a lot of miles it can be fixed. If a lot of miles are put on the motor prior to the re-curing process it makes it next to impossible to maintain the thread structure. You can solve this problem on your own if needed. Remove the valves, springs, retainer washers, and "C" clips from the cylinder. Place the cylinder in an oven @350 degrees for 3 hours, let cool gradually. This process will soften the aluminum and stop the threads from "shearing".


Hope this information helps.

Have fun,
 

cannonball2

Well-Known Member
Oct 28, 2010
3,682
221
63
Colonial Coast USA.
Hey Quenton, have been trying to scare up a set of the old K series Kohler tappets. As I remember they are similar in design. As far as dimensions I cant say. Figured I could possibly turn the down if necessary. Ever tried any?
 
Hi cannonball2,

The original proto-type mushroom lifters for the new edition motors was made from a set of vintage lifters. The vintage Whizzer motors used .500" O.D. lifters, and I cut [ground]them on my lathe to .393" [10 MM] to fit the new motor. I left the bottom 1/8" intact to keep the base at .500". The length was close and I had to use the vintage adjuster bolts, & nuts.

Because they were so hard I couldn't use a tool bit to cut them so I mounted a Dremel grinder on the tool post and slowly ground them to size. Sadly the supply of vintage Whizzer lifters isn't abundant.

If the Kohler lifters are at least .500" O.D. and the length is close they might be a alternate choice.

Have fun,
 

cannonball2

Well-Known Member
Oct 28, 2010
3,682
221
63
Colonial Coast USA.
I have some spotted on ebay. Its a gamble and a long shot, but who knows, they sorta look close. They come from the same design period. As I remember the Kohlers are an interference fit on the adjusters so you dont have to mess with a lock nut. Are you able to supply any mushrooms out right, or are they customer units only. Are those Tiawan Joe sells modifiable? He quoted me a price on the lifters only.
 
I have modifed Whizzer lifters and possibly some left from the last run of American units.

We are getting ready to produce another run of American lifters sometime very soon. The units he sells need serious work, but I have modified several hundred sets with great success.

The modified Whizzer units are worth approx. $75.00 and the American version are $95.00. The stock Whizzer units are worth approx $38.00. Lifters can be shipped for approx $3.00, so be sure to factor in the shipping cost fromTiawan [expensive].

Have fun,
 

itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
Quenton,

As always, you are a wealth of information. I assumed with 450 miles on non-mushroom motor that the cam was probably boogered as well. If I remove the compression cover, can I inspect the state of the cam/lifters, or does the side cover need to come off? Might as well inspect before purchase of any new hardware

When curing the cylinder, is it 350 celcius, or is it farenheiht? 350C is about 660F, my oven is not that hot. But 350F is easy -wait till wife is gone, then use kitchen oven. ;-)

As for the lifters, lightening makes lots of sense to me, especially if you're a hotrodder that will rev the motor. Hardening makes sense too, do you oil quench or case harden? And finally, were the later NE5 cases (those that came with 'shroom lifters) clearanced for the mushroom heads, or are all of the NE5's the same?

As always, thanks for your guidance.

Rich
 
Hi itchybird,

350 F. A good time to use black heat paint as the curing process also bakes the paint on.

Re-working the factory mushroom lifters is a must! The extra weight can cause several problems. The extra weight is hard on the camshaft lobes, and often flares the end of the valve stem.

I doubt your camshaft is damaged because of the softened lifters. The soft lifters take the punishment instead of the camshaft lobes. Biggest concern is the exhaust lifter and pieces breaking off the lifter and getting into the camshaft bearing in the crankcase. In one motor I serviced for a customer, the bearing locked and caused the gear to spin on the camshaft [not keyed], then cracked the case where the bearing was located. I had to have the case welded and machined to accept a new bearing.

The American mushroom lifters are hardened but I don't know which process is used. When I heat treat the Whizzer factory lifters I use oil to quench.

None of the cases are clearanced for lifters. Only a very few have clearance issues, and is mostly due to a combination of case casting & lifters with a tall mushroom at the base of the lifters. The contact only happens at high RPMs using the heavy tall lifters. Reducing the height of the base adds the needed clearance. DO NOT shorten the lifter, the base must be reduced from the top of the mushroom, not the bottom! I always true the base of the lifters, as often they are cut at an angle causing the lifter clearance to vary as the lifter rotates.

Good luck on using your oven without serious damage from your mate....LOL


Have fun,
 

KilroyCD

New Member
Jul 22, 2008
279
0
0
64
Lancaster County, PA
I got a set of mushroom lifters from Quenton in 2008 for my 2005 NE5. The bike had only 294 miles on it and the lifters were already in sad shape. Here is a photo showing the wear: http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z21/KilroyCD/100_1355.jpg
This next photo shows a piece of metal about to break off (it's at the 3 o'clock position): http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z21/KilroyCD/100_1358.jpg

I've had my head decked (by Quenton), installed a set of Quenton's mushroom lifters, advanced the cam timing one tooth, opened the restrictor plate and installed a hi-flo muffler insert (Quenton, someone needs to find a way to get that item back into production) and my bike has become a torque monster that can go faster than I'm willing to take it. I don't run an auto clutch, but I've had my own issues with the manual (slip) clutch. After working through those issues, that bike is pretty darned close to being as bullet-proof as possible. I'm sure you'll be able to get both engines sorted out and darned near bullet-proof too.
 

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msrfan

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2010
1,808
120
63
Southern California
Sorry itchybird but all Whizzer automatic clutches have problems.

2001 auto clutch was geared badly and the shoes easily glazed and stopped working quickly.

2005 early NE clutch had a soft bearing ramp [no one told Joe in Tiawan that you can't run high speed needle bearings on a soft shaft] and the needles quickly ate the surface. Most of the first edition clutches also used pressed in pins to hold the shoes, and sadly no one told Joe they needed to be pressed in more than .250" into the hub, and seems they fell out. Problem is if they fell out or worked loose at speed, not much was left of the clutch to rebuild. [I can modify to eliminate the shallow pin system]. The early clutches had both the drive and secondary side made of cast iron.

2006 auto clutch had a hardened bearing sleeve [no one told Joe in Tiawan what hard meant] and the bearings quickly ate the bearing sleeve. But the drive side of the clutch was now made of aluminum instead of cast iron [a real improvement].

2007 auto clutch went back to a soft bearing surface but replaced the 3 section needle bearing with a single one way in the center and the outside bearings were now ball bearings. Sadly no one told Joe in Tiawan that the center bearing was still a NEEDLE bearing and still couldn't work on a soft bearing surface.

2008 auto clutch still used the failed bearing & sleeve system, however the guy in Tiawan [Joe] thought it would improve the operation to replace the 2 smaller bearing with 5. The reason the clutch went to 5 bearings was to avoid the problem of the clutch tightning the mounting bolt and destroying the smaller bearings [the mounting bolt is reversed threads and would turn and over tighten the clutch to the arm].

Late 2008 and present, seems too many clutches were made with the 70 MM or 50 MM pulleys, therefore the unsold clutch hubs were cut down and a 90 MM pulley was installed with roll pins [no one told Joe in Tiawan that roll pins wouldn't keep the pulley on the hub]. The pulley is steel and the hub is cast iron, meaning it is impossible to weld the sprocket to the hub.

The newer the clutch the worse it is, in fact I can't save the last edition versions because the center bearing hub has been cut so far back for the extra [un-needed] bearings and the replacement pulley the hub just "snaps" off the housing.


All clutches made from 2005 to early 2008 can be modified to last and work correctly. The hub must be machined to remove any excuse of a bearing sleeve and a Rockwell 58 rated sleeve machined [ground] and pressed on.

I use the modified clutches on all my new edition Whizzers including the "Wheelie" machine and the 70 MPH record setter.


Good news and bad news! I have been upgrading the clutch for $110.00, but the bearing sleeves had a major price increase and in Jan 2011 the price will be $125.00. Price does not include replacing extra bearings, or a clutch used until it is too late to rebuild. If the clutch is run too long it can destroy the main center bearing adding an additional $35.00.


Please don't take these comments as advertizing for work, just information on cost and the importance of upgrading sooner than later.

Have fun,



Hey Quenton, good info on the clutches. Can you help me ID an ebay autoclutch? The large pulley is about 129mm, and the smaller is 91mm. It has a one-way bearing and looks cast iron. I plan to use it with a Briggs 5hp motor and don't need any problems with it. I presently have three 3rd Milleniun Energy automatics and they work great, but no more are available. Thanks for the help. Dale.
 
Hi Dale,

Clutch sounds like an early version and will need to be upgraded to work correctly. The large pulley is approx 5" [129 MM] and the drive side is approx 3.5" [90 MM]

However if it is the current version listed by Joe Lin, it isn't an automatic.

Have fun,