New F80 motor is running rough

WOW, call Dwayne and send it back to him give you another one . I blew up my PK-80 yesterday . so I ordered one of the bottom end from Dwayne and a piston and cylinder from boy go fast and put RC Machine head back on after I mill in another third transfer port, match porting, and of course port & polish .And then there's paint and polish the jug fins and then comes reassembly to the bike . Now hear some crazy stuff Dwayne told me to run on NON-synthetic oil through break in . he said if you run synthetic on break and its got too much lubrication and the motor will not break in properly ??????? Humm?????

So $80.00 for the bottom end and $25.00 top end is $105.00 how did you spend Mitch?????

maniac57 said:

If you pack this area, grease can work it's way past the bearings enough to contaminate the clutch pads. I saw this problem here in a clutch thread somewhere...

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You don't "pack" anything near the clutch with grease. Ya notice I used words like "dab" and "a drop or three". And I did go on to say TOO MUCH will only spin out on the pads.
The big clutch gear and the small bevel gear are, again, metal to metal. A "dab" of grease will quite the clutch gears and enhance it's life.
The very small clutch bearings are, and I say again, Metal to metal. Can you think of any other bearing you would not recommend at least a little lube on? Running a dry bearing in any situation is never done if you want it to last any time at all. And again, This will also quite clutch operation.
I've been doing it this way for years. I've had an engine or two wear out but I've never had a clutch go south on me except for pads after a few years. I service my engine, (re-grease everything,) about every other month. If you ride more then me then you might want to do this once a month.
I learned all of this from the old timers with 8 or 10 years of forum time when I was a newbie. Most of them will tell you to get a syringe to pump "a little" grease into the small clutch bearings. (AGAIN, ONLY A LITTLE grease.) and I've never had a problem with lube on the pads.
Gears and bearings need lube, No one can say I'm wrong about that. Ask ANYONE with a mechanical engineering degree.
fatdaddy.
P.S. After I said all this, watch my clutch explode today,LOL.

MitchP said:

Dang that sucks about the PK. I'll call about a new head, I'm pretty sure this one off the grubee is a little warped, plus it's not F80 parts. I've also heard that about synthetic vs. conventional, but it doesn't add up. Wouldn't you want the smoothest break-in possible?

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You use dino (non-synthetic) to let the rings (and other moving parts) wear in. They need to wear in to produce a proper seal. Synthetic is too light and slippery to do this properly. After breaking in, use your synthetic stuff. I run dino 100% of the time and still have a ton of performance. This wouldn't be an issue if there was wear strips like in quality vehicles (cars, motorcycles, etc.), then you could use it even in break-in, but with these, because they dont have the strip (that wears down after like 100 miles, it shapes the rings to conform smooth and tight to the cylinder walls) they need the extra friction against the cylinder.

...Or so I've heard, I dont know if this wear strip actually exists because... I've never seen a brand new cylinder from any "real" vehicle.

mew905 said:

You use dino (non-synthetic) to let the rings (and other moving parts) wear in. They need to wear in to produce a proper seal. Synthetic is too light and slippery to do this properly. After breaking in, use your synthetic stuff. I run dino 100% of the time and still have a ton of performance. This wouldn't be an issue if there was wear strips like in quality vehicles (cars, motorcycles, etc.), then you could use it even in break-in, but with these, because they dont have the strip (that wears down after like 100 miles, it shapes the rings to conform smooth and tight to the cylinder walls) they need the extra friction against the cylinder.

...Or so I've heard, I dont know if this wear strip actually exists because... I've never seen a brand new cylinder from any "real" vehicle.

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Great advice for a short time (I am too,) elite member. Yer 100% right about how it has to "wear in" to seat properly, and a synthetic is TOO slick to allow this. A REAL engine is made up of entirely different materials. These POS Chinese boat anchors are made of softer stuff. Thats why you can "break in" a china girl engine with only a tank or two of gas.
And 38mph ain't bad bro. I'm only getting 35mph on my stocker.
fatdaddy.

Yeah. I was only mentioning it in case. I ALWAYS use a dab on all the gears. Queits mine right down.
I have seen people use a lube gun to pack every orifice in a motor and repairing it was not pretty.

This is one of the many old wives tale that a motor won't break in on synthetic. Your motor will break in just fine on synthetic, it just takes about twice as long.
About 450-500 miles in the case of a china girl.

I use Red Line which is even higher rated than Amsoil.

biknut said:

This is one of the many old wives tale that a motor won't break in on synthetic. Your motor will break in just fine on synthetic, it just takes about twice as long.
About 450-500 miles in the case of a china girl.

I use Red Line which is even higher rated than Amsoil.

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Perhaps yer right biknut, but who wants to go through 5 or 6 tanks of gas when you can get the same results in 2, THEN go to a synthetic if ya want.
Since ya gotta take it easier on it till it's broke in, I think you would want it to break in ASAP. Also, most tend to use less oil when using a synthetic. Since this is the ONLY way yer bottom end and wrist pin get lubed, my question is, How much oil do you want on YOUR bearings? I just prefer a little more REAL oil.
(Just sayin.)
fatdaddy.

maniac57 said:

Yeah. I was only mentioning it in case. I ALWAYS use a dab on all the gears. Queits mine right down.
I have seen people use a lube gun to pack every orifice in a motor and repairing it was not pretty.

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Yep, Taking a clutch apart to wipe off globs of grease is a PITA. Thats why I try to use words like "a dab" or "a drop or three". I've replaced a lot of customer clutches that never lubed them at all. All the little bearings wind up in the bottom of the case. Never had to replace one on any of my personal bikes yet, Just worn out pads. (Knock on wood.)
fatdaddy.

Synthetic oil is real oil, and performs to higher standards than regular oils. The quantity does not matter, only the dispersion and lubricity, two qualities in which the synthetics excel. And as for break-in, something like 90% of break-in happens in the first 3 strokes, as they are not lubricated and the ductile iron rings are much softer than the nikasil coating that lines the bore. The engine itself takes more time to time to break in because of misalignment due to the lack of accuracy and precision in manufacturing.

Synthetic oil is not "real" oil, Thats why they call it synthetic. I'm not saying anything about the "lubricity", (viscosity,) at this point, Just that a dinosour didn't die to make it. What concerns me at this point is that you say the engine is not lubricated for the first 3 strokes.
I've had several brand new engines apart for different reasons, And every one, even the cheapest BGF engine, has a layer of break in oil on all the bottom end bearings. So that takes care of the lower end for "the first 3 strokes". Of course this leaves the cylinder and rings. If you've been starting an engine with a dry top end then yeah, dry rings on a dry cylinder is NEVER good. If I may suggest, Next time you start an engine for the first time, try dropping a little oil, synthetic if ya want, into the cylinder. Or even a little fuel mix. I ALWAYS put about 1/2 cap of oil down the plug hole for my first start. Dry metal on dry metal, as I'm sure you know, Is never recommended.
And I'm not knocking your choice of oil bro, I think it says more about me than it does you. I'm just REALLY old school and will probably never change. Hurray for the dinosours.
fatdaddy.

Your "real oil" is used to start the chains used in synthetic. Lubricity and viscocity are two different qualities. You may be concerned, but this engine has little lubrication on startup as does any engine. I do add oil while rebuilding the engines, but they still have little lubrication. I am an engineer who designs supercharging systems and turbines, so I have a generally good idea of what goes on.

biknut said:

This is one of the many old wives tale that a motor won't break in on synthetic. Your motor will break in just fine on synthetic, it just takes about twice as long.
About 450-500 miles in the case of a china girl.

I use Red Line which is even higher rated than Amsoil.

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I agree biknut, i break mine in on what I'm gonna run full time, I'm an opti2 user with great results, I don't mix 100:1 like some do, I just mix mine about 80:1 and tune my engines on that mix, they run great, I know opti2 isnt a full synthetic oil but it is much better in my opinion than the luck I've had with the high quality dino oil. I've had two engines crap out on me and that was before I switched to opti2, just saying......

Id rather run multiple tanks during the break in period and get a slower, smoother and cooler break in than to allow all that extra friction in my engine which increases heat that can also cause premature wear issues on other parts such as seals and gaskets.
the engines I've started on Opti2 have done just fine after a couple hundred miles and a correct carb tune.

Just my $.02 and I say whatever works for ya do it.

Peace, Map

Here is a few facts about synthetic oils that may be of interest to some and amybe not...?

The most common source for the molecules that are used in synthetic oil is derived from crude oil."

There are no labs growing long-chain polymers in commercial-sales quantities. That is where synthetic oils arguably were thought up, and perhaps some were made that way. But, in order to create reasonably priced synthetic oils in national (global, really) market capacities, crude oil is cracked into (literally) thousands of discreet polymer formulas, from "light" (gasoline) to "heavy" (tars), and some of the light-to-medium grades are pure enough and useful to remix (i.e. "synthesize") into motor oil.

The most common source for the molecules that are used in synthetic oil is derived from crude oil. I call these molecules 'Oilies'. What they do to make synthetic oil is to break down the 'oilies' and remove them from the rest of the unwanted properties that cannot be removed by refining alone. One of the benifits from breaking down the molecules this way is that it leaves the finished product much more uniform in size and it leaves the oil the cleanest possible. If synthetic oil is made from 'oilies' from crude, then what is synthetic about it?. They take these 'oilies' and use them kind of like puzzle pieces to build a base oil a certain way. They can join them together in different lengths to make a different weight range of oil. This new set or chain of molecules in the finished product does not exist in nature, so they are 'Man Made'. Building oil this way was really hard for me to understand for the longest time.



Synthetic oils, (True Full Synthetic Oils), need very little viscosity enhancers, if any, added to it to make it a 'Multi Grade Oil'. They can do that when building the new 'oilies' (putting the puzzle pieces together). In other words, the base oil is built to do what they want it to do at different temperatures unlike the dino oils which need viscosity enhancers added to it. This is the main reason that I can find for the synthetic oils ability to be more 'shear stable'. It�s not just an additive breaking down.



The classes of synthetic oils seem to be changing but most of them that are currently on the market at the time of this writing are broken down into two groups. I've already covered the first group which is the PAO's known as the 'Group IV' synthetic oil. The other type of synthetic oil is referred to as 'Group III' synthetic oil. The 'Group III' oils are basically crude oil that has been refined with the newer high tech refining. I did some Internet research about the 'Group III' synthetic oils and I found statements that said the companies that make these oils convinced some lawyers that this type of refining made the oil different enough from regular crude oil that it could be called 'Synthetic'. You may hear some people refer to this oil as 'Legally Synthetic'. One thing you'll notice is that the 'Group III' oils have a lower price tag than the 'Group IV' oils do. The price difference in the two can be traced back to the cost of refining one and building the other.


Map

A little light reading, enjoy.
fatdaddy.
http://www.2strokeheads.com/OIL-TECH.htm

fatdaddy said:

A little light reading, enjoy.
fatdaddy.
http://www.2strokeheads.com/OIL-TECH.htm

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That article is total bunk. Especially the part about synthetic not being able to seat the rings, and the molicules being to big to get into the bearings to lube them lol.

biknut said:

That article is total bunk. Especially the part about synthetic not being able to seat the rings, and the molicules being to big to get into the bearings to lube them lol.

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I know that you think you know it all
Just what are your degrees in science? LOL

I have an Honors B.S. in Mechanical Engineering with Minors in Chemistry and Mathematics. That article is, for lack of a better term, crap. There is a reason many new cars, high performance engines, and turbines use synthetic lubricants; they provide better lubricity, and can be made smaller on the molecular level, thus allowing tighter clearances. Synthetic oils are also more pure than a "natural" oil. As for synthetics not burning, if you are running 4 stroke synthetics through a 2 stroke, you may have some issues. Synthetics for 2 stroke engines are designed and tested to the particular demands of a two stroke motor, they cannot be compared to a synthetic of a 4 stroke motor. This is all the more I have to say about the subject. If you'd like real information, find which books are accepted by the asme, buy them, and read them. Don't take the word of some crackpot website on the internet, learn it for yourself.