futillity in motion or not

Discussion in 'Motorized Bicycle General Discussion' started by Jim C, Apr 15, 2011.

  1. Jim C

    Jim C New Member

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    As some of you know I have been disappointed with my Schwinn Jaguar/Stinger motor pretty much from day one. I attributed some of it to the jag frame that is too small and the quality control of the Stingers components. All in all it is a nice looking set up but overall a disapoinment for me. I have not even had the bike out since I purchased my Towniee 3i. It is a beautiful spring day today here in Long Beach and I thought I would take the Jag out for a run. It started right up and in about a block I heard a familar "CLACK" that experience has tought me is the motor chain. So I pilled in the clutch lever too late and the chain jumped the sprocket. I lifted the rear wheel and lugged it home. I have decided that I am through with it. I have 2 nice pedal bikes and a sports car. I will make some body a good deal on this thing. If you are interested in it write me back. I want to keep the cushy seat and sprung seat post. I do have Schwinn seat & stem to go with it.laff
     
  2. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Active Member

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    I thought Baird got you straightened out?
    Too bad you didn't come to the recent El Dorado park ride in LB.

    Hate to see you give up so easily....
    Nothing wrong with the Jaguars and I am buying another one tomorrow.
    there is no reason for the chain to keep coming off if correctly set up.

    But if you will take $100 for it i'll take it off your hands LOL
    Seriously, I offered before, bring it over and I will make it work.

    Actually I just helped a guy finish his Jag 2 stroke build. It ran pretty
    good but he had done an excellent job of centering the sprocket. I
    just put the tensioner on, cut the chain and fixed his twisted motor
    mounting job. Cut a bit off those too long thigh jabbing cow horn bars.
    Also the chain tensioner needs to be tweaked a bit to align with the chain path.

     
    #2 MotorBicycleRacing, Apr 15, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2011
  3. decoherence

    decoherence New Member

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    i was having a ton of chain issues. l switched to #41 chain from tractor supply & loving it. it is wider but, the wideness has helped. it has no more side to side whipping that was rubbing my tire. i also got rid of my tensioner. that thing was major trouble also.
    i spent hours of fitting & refitting chain on both sides to get rid of the tensioner. deft worth it.
     
  4. Jim C

    Jim C New Member

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    I pulled some of it down today & fixed it. I have not ridden it yet. The chain was really jammed behind the wheel sprocket and wedged in the spokes. The chain was wadded up inside the counter-shaft space. If I had not grabbed the clutch when I heard the "CLACK" it would have broken the cases.

    My disappointment still continues. I am thinking that this bike, will at best be a hobby bike and will never be dependable enough to be used as a daily rider. I want to just get on it and ride away. I am too old and too tired to want to constantly tinker with this thing. I like the looks, the sound and the attention it gets. But if I have to spend 1/2 an hour wrenching to take a little ride it is not worth it.
     
  5. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Active Member

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    You are probably using the original junk Chinese chain.
    Go to Myrons Mopeds in Fullerton and get a quality 415 chain.

    My offer still stands and your bike can be made reliable. You are almost there.

    If you want it fixed send me a PM with your phone #
    I am close by to LB.
     
    #5 MotorBicycleRacing, Apr 16, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  6. decoherence

    decoherence New Member

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    i totally understand the futility feeling. i bought my bike about a year ago & i'm only on my 3rd gal & i think i most of it was lost to leakage.

    i bought it to get me to a job i just got that was about 5 miles away. well after a few weeks i had issue after issue. so i was having to pedal to work & be all sweaty in an office w/all women. i eventually lost the job because i called into work sick 2 times in my 90day intro period.
    if my motorised bike was running i wouldn't have called in. because i was too sick to pedal but not too sick to drive.

    but today i had a good day. i drove all over town & to the local flea market. many people came up to me telling me i should set up a booth to build & sell them. then on the way home i met another guy on a china girl.

    so i guess it is a complicated relationship.
     
  7. mapbike

    mapbike Active Member

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    In my experience the set up is the most important part leading to reliability, I have a bike that has almost 1000 miles on it, rag joint, original china 415 chain, completely stock engine and it's the straight plug engine that has the small 6mm head studs, the only mod is the exhaust.

    a properly done tensioner and a properly aligned chain and it will work flawlessly for a long time, I honestly cant remember the last time I had a wrench on this bike and it takes me on 10-32 mile round trips with NO issues at will.

    What you have Jim C is a set up problem not a parts or bike problem, now I have found that some of these kits do come with better heavier chains than others and I did have a chain issue with another kit that came with a very junky lose "415" 1/2" X 3/16" chain, I could almost tie it in a knot is was such a piece -a- crap! So the advice on a higher quality chain is very good advice, I've probably just ben real fortunate to get a couple good chains in my BGF - (BIG MOUNT) kits and the other standard 6mm stud engine and at least 2/3 of the miles I have on mine are on very dusty rough dirt roads, very little smooth pave ment riding in that almost 1000 miles.

    I also NEVER OIL my chains period.......oil-dirt-chain is a bad combo... I use Liquid Wrench Dry Film Lube which leaves a "Ceflon" ( Teflon ) film, this is all I use and my chains hold up well, riding on the dirt like I do this lube is a must for me, oil is ok if only pavement riding is done but personally I still wouldn't oil mine, I would still use the dry lube or maybe chain wax.

    My advise would be to take BiMoPed's advice and take it over to him, and I'll better he will have you up and running ----- RELIABLY ----- in no time at all.

    Good luck, Happy riding---&---Peace!
     
  8. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman New Member

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    That's not a tensioner, it's an idler. And you don't oil your chains? lol... Waiting for your 3k mile report. :D
     
  9. mapbike

    mapbike Active Member

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    Dont know what your point is here Aleman.....It's actually an Idler/Tensioner, if it maintains a set amount of tension on the chain it is a tension maintaining device with an idler wheel, so I would say it is both.

    You may say it needs to be spring loaded and provide varying tension to be classified as a true self adjusting tensioner, NOT true... but my dang man why the freaking nit picking on something like this......?

    And as I said.....no I dont (petrol. base) oil my chains, talk to a pro kart racer who runs on dirt and you'll be told the same, oil attracks dirt, grit and grime which will limit the life of a chain....only in a somewhat dirt free enviroment does the oil not actually cause premature wear, yes oil is good to lube chains, but not when you are riding in a very dusty dirt enviroment like I do.

    My chains are not running dry of lubrication as you seem to be getting at here, I do lube them with something called (TEFLON) which is about a 100 times slicker than chain lube oil.......and I'll bet my sprocket will out last longer than those that have been oiled and run in a very dusty dirty enviroment.

    your not talking with a fella who is wet behind the ears here Aleman, I been involved in multiple type of motorsports for 30+ years and have seen and done a lot, so ease up on the BS your directing at me on these two subjects!

    Not meaning to offend anyone here, but I don't like being jabbed at this way, so lets get the facts straight before we start with the crap throwing without reason.

    Check out these two links of clear tensioner definition and tell me what we use to keep our chains adjusted and tensioned is not a tensioner/idler.

    Peace & happy safe riding all.

    tensioner definition

    belt tensioner definition

    .shft.


     
  10. dmb

    dmb Active Member

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    jim c get a sprocket adapter and ride trouble free pm me and i'll come by and show you. dennis
     
  11. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Active Member

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    Hi Dennis
    Most of the Jaguars have a conical rear hub which will not work with the adapters.
    I would have suggested it lol and he doesn't need it.

    The problem with the Jag builds is the large front tube and noobs get the
    motor twisted. Also the tensioner, sorry i meant idler lol needs to be aligned
    with the chain.

    You were at the OC ride. Don the who got lost has a dependable
    Jag 2 stroke build with a rag joint. I called him up cause I was worried
    about him and it seems that he was ahead of the pack?????
    So he basically completed the ride by himself LOL We were looking for him
    and he didn't have anyones cell phone #!!! I guess it's a fast bike lol

    I just bought another Jaguar today for $75 delivered. It looks like new
    and it has the concave rear hub but I don't care as I will be upgrading the
    wheels and shifting through the gears.
     
    #11 MotorBicycleRacing, Apr 16, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2011
  12. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman New Member

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    That is my point: it doesn't maintain tension. It's a guide wheel or an idler if it is rigid. If one is running a master link, the chain will have uneven slack anyway.

    If it's spring loaded, then it's a true tensioner, as it then supplies tension on the chain. If it lacks a spring, it's an idler. It's quite simple.

    Cool story bro.

    Cool story, too. Not BSing you, but I know the difference between an idler and a tensioner.

    Wasn't jabbing at ya either. Had my fill of people calling an idler a chain tensioner is all, and so I posted. Maybe I should have kept quiet, but I'm bound to say something eventually.

    There is no spring mechanism in the stock idler. It has nothing to provide tension. If you adjust the idler so that the chain is tight, it's just going to wear out the wheel and cause more slack in the chain. Thus, it is not a tensioner. That is all.
     
  13. mapbike

    mapbike Active Member

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    belt/Chain tensioner

    Definition

    An arrangement for tightening a drive belt or chain, often comprising an idler pulley whose position can be adjusted.


    Our Idler/Tensioners can be adjusted can't they?

    And after adjusting the idler wheel either up or down the tension of the chain is either increased or decreased, Correct?


    The wheel on the mechanical device is the idler.......and the entire mechanism is considered the "tensioner" because the idler can be adjusted to increase or decrease the tension on the chain/belt/whatever is running on the idler wheel/pulley, so it is a non-selfadjusting Idler tensioner.

    As a former industrial mait. mechanic I have worked on many machine over the years that have a very tough plastic bushing material or an olied felt tensioner pad used for removing unwanted extra slack and maintaining correct tension on a chain drive, it cant be called an idler because it's tension is roughly maintained by a skid that the chain slides across, they aren't be spring loaded either, most times this set up is adjusted by losening a bolt or nut and repositining the tensioner.......

    If someone was to remove the roller and install a skid surface for the chain to move across would you still be making the argument that it's an idler.....?

    I'm done with this subject after this post, I have nothing to prove and I understand how hard it is to tell someone something who already knows it all in their opinion.

    This whole thing is just such nonsense and I don't understand why some people have to jump into a discussion that they had nothing to do with and hijack it by insulting others intelligence with non factual statements, and then to say that their reason for doing so is..................

    "Had my fill of people calling an idler a chain tensioner is all, and so I posted. Maybe I should have kept quiet, but I'm bound to say something eventually."

    My advice is not to say things unless you know them to be factual, especially when you are basically calling others ignorant, uninformed, idiots in a round about way.

    Here we are, myself & many others not claiming by any means to know it all, but only trying to offer some help to someone else who is having trouble with there bike and saying they are to the point of giving up on the bike, then out of nowhere, someone who obviously has no help or sound advice to offer this person hijacks this post about a chain issue and starts in on us about how we are to ignorant to know that these kits don't actually have a chain tensioner but rather a chain idler........!

    To everyone on here that see's this discussion I appoligize if there has been anything I have said that has offended anyone, this was not intended in anyway, I just felt the need to do my best to clear the air on the subject, and if It turns out that I have made claims that are not 100% correct I will accept the proof that shows where I have been wrong, but my main concern with this was that many of us were trying to help someone with a real problem and then someone chimes in and hijacks the subject with a load of know it all attitude that was meant to point out that all of us several hundred or maybe thousands of fella's who call the Chain Idler/Tensioner a Chain Tensioner are a bunch of morons who dont know what we are talking about......and as we say around here where I'm from "this put a burr under my saddle" and I took it personal which I think is pretty obvious by my multiple responses.

    Sorry for the ranting fella's I know there are a bunch of guys on here that know way more about many things than I do, and to all the very knowledgable people here who have helped me and many countless others I give you the respect you deserve by ending this fruitless attempt to convince the all knowing few of their error.

    Please accept my apology for this last post here on this subject, but I just had to get this off my chest.

    Peace..!

    dnut
     
  14. Jim C

    Jim C New Member

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    I don't know what a sprocket adaptor is. I am using the original chain. I have 93 miles on the odometer about 125 on the build. I don't think the chain is the trouble I think the tensionor/adjuster/idler is really junk. It is not one thing it is everything. It is the clutch, the carb fell off, the top of the carb unscrewd, the carb adjustment screw fell out, the chain has jumped 4 times. It is just alott ot things all can be fixed but fixing it everytime I ride aint what I want to do
     
  15. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Active Member

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    One last time.......................
    PM me, I will fix it for you for free, seriously!
    Just for the challenge, you seem to want to b**** more than to get it fixed lol

    If you love to ride I would hate to have you quit over this! They are a lot of FUN!
    Too bad that you didn't make it to the OC ride right in your neighborhood.
     
    #15 MotorBicycleRacing, Apr 17, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2011
  16. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman New Member

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    Maybe it's all semantics to some. I work by pure logic. I see the distinction, and I have put many thousands of miles on many chains. I just feel anyone who calls a rigid idler a chain tensioner is wrong. My opinion, call it what you want. Just that when I see you do it, I see you just doing it wrong. There is a difference. But don't get me wrong, I don't take it to heart really. I just had my fill that night :D

    It's like calling a dial caliper a "mic". I'll chew on your ear about it if I hear it too much lol. I mean no disrespect to anyone :D

    Edit: post all the definitions of tensioner you can Google. I don't care. The stock kit idler does not maintain chain tension. kk.
     
    #16 The_Aleman, Apr 17, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2011
  17. 2door

    2door Moderator
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    Sorry but I'll have to disagree. Just because it isn't spring loaded doesn't mean it isn't a tensioner. That's the reason for the slotted mount. So it can be moved to increase the chain tension. Hence, it IS a tensioner.
    Much has been written here about the pros and cons of this device. Is it needed, is it not? I'm not going to repeat what has been gone over too many times to count.
    Whether you use one or not is irrelevant. What is important is chain alignment and tension. The other factors that dictate if the installation is successful is proper rear sprocket installation. It doesn't take a machined aluminum adapter to get it right either. The rag joints will work just fine IF installed correctly. That means NO wobbles. If the chain keeps coming off then look for improper chain path alignment, improper chain tension, a uncentered sprocket. Also the chain quality can come into play. If there is binding or twists to the chain it will cause problems. Replacing the kit supplied chain with an industrial grade #41 will usually solve the defective chain issues.

    I'm also curious about what the OP means when he says, "The Jaguar frame is too small."
    Too small for what?

    Tom
     
  18. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Active Member

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    He is probably talking about the small diameter chain stays
    which make attaching the tensioner / idler lol a little difficult
    but it is easily solved.

    I like Jaguars a lot.
     
  19. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman New Member

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    Thanks for posting Tom, but I respectfully disagree. So it's an adjustable idler. Where does it keep tension on the chain? It doesn't. I've run these since '06, some people toss em, but I like them and use them. Treat them like idlers and they work, quite well. Treat them like chain tensioners and they fail. As they should, because they are simply not tensioners as i see them. Semantics perhaps.

     
  20. MotorBicycleRacing

    MotorBicycleRacing Active Member

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    Hey
    I'm just trying to get Jim from selling his bike and giving up
    and you guys are getting into a pissing contest over
    whether it is a tensioner or an idler.
    Who cares?
    Maybe you should get a room or start another thread?

    All the guys I know who what they are doing don't
    use the tensioner.

    I will never use idlers or muffler clamps LOL
     

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