1/2 Scale Real BTR Single & V-Twin Engines

Discussion in 'Board Trackers and Vintage Motorized Bicycles' started by Crazy Horse, May 10, 2011.

  1. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    Checkout this engine a half scale fully functional Cyclone V-Twin, and the Machinist who fabricates them is Tim Sieber! Imagine that!

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    Peace Crazy Horse.
     
    #1 Crazy Horse, May 10, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  2. harry76

    harry76 New Member

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    I want one but, fear i couldnt afford it :-(
     
  3. fasteddy

    fasteddy Well-Known Member

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    That's the motor for a Whippet.

    Steve.
     
  4. Mr.B.

    Mr.B. Well-Known Member

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    Hey Crazy House,

    At the National Motorcycle Museum in Anamosa Iowa they have a 1/2:confused: scale early Indian engine that’s of the period- Likely a salesman’s sample.

    The curator told me the bike it was attached to was a fairly recent replica- looked like the builder used 20” bicycle rims to me.

    Sorry I can’t locate a photo with a quick o.l. search, but here’s a link to the museum

    National Motorcycle Museum | Home

    --------------------------------

    But this does beg the question...?

    What scale should a properly proportioned repop engine be?

    Since most of us are using bicycles with 26” X 2.125” wheels compared the early motorcycles 28” X 2.5” to 3” I think appox 90% actual size would be about right...?

    Now off to my foundry-

    Just kidding, I haven’t installed that wing to my house yet.

    -Kirk
     
  5. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    It's real the 1/2 scale engine's are made by Tom Sieber!

    The Little Indian Comes Alive
    Winger and Indian couple of years ago, Dick Winger showed up at the AMCA national meet at Eustis, Florida with a 50% scale working model of an Indian V-twin engine built by Tom Sieber of Chula Vista, California.

    Whereas a real Indian twin, circa 1907, weighs about 88 pounds, Sieber's tiny replica weighs only 20.

    Proving beyond a doubt that the little engine runs, at Oley Winger arrived with it installed in a scaled-down chassis that he had built from scratch during the last 45 days.

    Winger jokes, "Does this mean I have too much time on my hands?" Sieber, has built five of the little Indians, and was on hand at Oley to research the idea of building a miniature Indian eight-valve.

    He estimates that designing and fabricating the first miniature Hedstrom-type twin required approximately 300 hours.

    More to come.....

    One Little Indian
    I have written before about how much I enjoy the ingenious, odd, and sometimes bizarre contraptions that the skilled craftsmen within the AMCA membership come up with from time to time. Years ago, I recall seeing at the Little Indian Engine Davenport meet a demonstration of a single-cylinder engine for which someone had constructed a Lucite cylinder. It could not be run for more than a few moments at a time due heating and lubrication problems, but when in operation, one could clearly see the piston whizzing up and down, and a kind of a smokey fog in the combustion chamber. At Eustis this year I was amazed again by a tiny Hedstrom-type Indian twin, seen here, that Dick Winger had on display. Appearing to be somewhere around 50% scale, it was assembled from beautifully cast and machined parts. Winger says it will run, and thinks an Indian eight-valve would make an ideal future project. Indeed, it would!

    Speaking of Indians, we have previously reported on the collaboration between collector Dick Winger and machinist Tom Sieber to build 50% scale Indian engines. Displaying a half-scale, 20 pound working replica of a Hedstrom twin at the Oley, Pennsylvania AMCA meet, Winger announced that Sieber planned to build an eight-valve Indian. Pictured here is the result, approaching completion. Note that the valve train has been finished for the rear cylinder, but the front cylinder head remains to be drilled and machined. If you doubt that this is actually a miniature, compare its size to the name tag on Winger's shirt.

    See pic below for the Blue and Red 1/2 Scale Indians, and pic of Dick Winger & Tom Sieber with the other 1/2 scale Indian, In last pic is Dick Winger holding his Cyclone engine 1/2 scale version, built by Tim Sieber!

    Mr B. you are correct they are 20-inch wheels!
     

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    #5 Crazy Horse, May 10, 2011
    Last edited: May 10, 2011
  6. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    Part 2,

    More about Tom Sieber and his friend Dick Winger and their 1/2 Scale Board Track Racer engines & Motorbikes.

    From Motohistory News:

    Thinking big on a small scale

    (12/30/2010)
    An historical overview of the American motorcycle industry—and the motor industry as a whole—would lead one to believe that it is and always has been driven by the axiom, “bigger is better.” But not everyone thinks this way. There are some who demonstrate the beauty and elegance of a classic motorcycle engine by making it smaller.

    Tom Sieber, of Chula Vista, California (pictured above), was born in New Jersey in 1950 and earned a degree in mechanical engineering from the University of Maryland in 1978. Today, his livelihood is in the custom design and fabrication of industrial air conditioning and refrigeration systems, but his love is—and always has been—internal combustion design, and specifically motorcycle engines. He says, “I’ve been interested in engines and mechanical things since I was a kid. In school I took a shop class where we learned some of the basics of casting and machining metal, and I thought the little things we made were really cool.” He adds, “I liked the casting best; pouring molten aluminum into a sand mold. I dreamed of actually building an engine, and I knew I would have to understand how to make patterns and castings.”



    Sieber built a charcoal-fired furnace in his home to melt aluminum, and started making patterns the old-fashioned way, out of wood. Next, he designed and built a hit-or-miss engine, where he tackled the complexity of casting a water jacket (pictured in above post). In the process of perfecting his techniques, he built four such engines. However, what he really dreamed of was replicating an early motorcycle engine. Sieber had ridden motorcycles all his life, and he loved the open beauty of their engines. He reminisces, “My first bike was a little 250cc BSA side-valve. Maybe that’s where I learned to love engines, because I worked on it more than I rode it.” Later, he owned a Velocette, a 500 BSA, and finally a 1954 Harley-Davidson K Model, which he confesses he loved as much as any motorcycle he has ever owned.



    Sieber’s decision to finally tackle a replica motorcycle engine came after he saw his first Hedstrom-type Indian twin on display at a museum in San Diego. He says, “I thought it was a beautiful engine, and possibly simple enough for my first attempt.” He began to create patterns for the engine simply by working from pictures. Scale was also a problem, because he did not have the facility to cut his own gears. He researched what was available, and ended up with a size very close to half-scale of the original Hedstrom, based solely on the gearing he could buy off the shelf. He explains, “It just wasn’t working, and I knew I needed access to a real engine for precise measurements.



    Fortunately, at this impasse Sieber met Dick Winger, a motorcycle historian, collector, and a director of the Antique Motorcycle Club of America (pictured in above post with Sieber and one of his miniature engines in a scaled -down chassis built by Winger). “Dick was a heck of a guy,” Sieber relates, “He got real excited about the project and ended up lending me a Hedstrom twin for as long as I needed it. That turned out to be about two years.” Sieber continues, “I disassembled it and fabricated a complete set of patterns in half-scale. It took me about 200 hours to build the engine, not including making the patterns.”



    Sieber’s little Hedstrom twin debuted at the AMCA National Meet at Oley, Pennsylvania in 2004. Whereas a real Indian engine, circa 1907, weighs 88 pounds, Sieber’s miniature weighs only 20. Winger, as giddy as a kid with a new toy, built a scaled-down replica Indian around it in less than 45 days, which he displayed at the Wauseon, Ohio meet that same year. The little engine attracted the attention of other Indian enthusiast, and to date Sieber has built eight examples. In the mean time, Winger was in his ear, telling him how cool it would be to build an eight-valve. Sieber took the bait, in part because he knew that many of the lower-end patterns built for the Hedstrom design could be modified for an eight-valve. He recalls, “The cylinders are different, but really the only major undertaking was the heads.” Sieber borrowed a pair of reproduction eight-valve heads to measure for completion of the project. Only one of the eight-valve Indians has been built so far, which is still in the Winger collection.



    While the Indians are true works of art, Sieber had secretly dreamed of building a Cyclone. He says, “When the Guggenheim book about The Art of the Motorcycle Exhibition was published, I opened a copy and right there in the front was a huge photograph of the famous overhead cam Cyclone. I was with a friend at the time, and I told him, ‘One day I’m going to build one of those.’” Forming a relationship with Dick Winger as a friend and adviser helped make fulfillment of this dream possible. Of course, Winger was as enthusiastic as ever in assuring Sieber that a Cyclone was exactly the project he should next undertake, and he put the builder in touch with Bob Chantland, in Minnesota, who owned a complete machine and a spare engine.



    Given the value and rarity of Cyclones, Chantland drove a hard—but fair—bargain. Sieber relates, “He said I could completely dismantle his engine to make measurements and build patterns, but in return I had to give him the first replica I built.” Sieber continues, “The first Cyclone took more than nine months, including 400 hours just to make the patterns.” He recalls, “The bevel gears for the valve train were a problem. I couldn’t find these on the shelf, and I ended up having to have them custom made. Man, was that expensive!” Sieber's Cyclone is depicted above right and right, and its size can be seen in the hands of Dick Winger, above left, and at top of page in first post.



    Today, Sieber is working on his sixth Cyclone engine. He says, “Once the patterns are made and the first one is done, it gets a little easier each time. I can now build one of my miniatures in about three months.” He, and his wife Jane, are still active riders, and own a Harley-Davidson XL1200C. He also has a 1957 FLH, his only full-size collectible. But in his mind is a list of other miniature engines he would like to build. These include an early Excelsior, an overhead-valve Jefferson, a Harley Pea Shooter, and a Crocker.



    A Crocker! Now that’s thinking big on a small scale!

    We need a guy like Tom Sieber, to make us some really cool engines like those above 1/2 scale versions.

    Maybe he'd be willing to sell plans for the 1/2 scale engines, to us!

    C.H.
     
    #6 Crazy Horse, May 10, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  7. cobrafreak

    cobrafreak New Member

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    That's me when I retire.
     
  8. ghosteh

    ghosteh New Member

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    Neat, but why not build them at 1/1 scale??

    If he wants a challenge, make it 95% the size of the original! :D
     
  9. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    Hey forum members, do any of you Live near Tim Seiber in Chula Vista, California? He is an amazing machinist!

    I believe some of his Half scale 24-Inch BTR's are on display at Davenport, Iowa's museum Wheels Through Time.

    I wish we could commission him to build some engines for us vintage style tribute motor bike builders.

    If anyone lives close to him please try to contact him, maybe he'll sell us the plans for the engines he builds as far as I know he builds both the Indian & Harley engines!

    C.H.
     
    #9 Crazy Horse, Oct 22, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2011
  10. motorhedfred

    motorhedfred Member

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    There really seems to be a lot of interest in small v-twin engines here. It's understandable when you get a glimpse of the early board track motorcycles and thier street ridden counterparts. They really are works of machine age art.

    I own a small v-twin sport bike and I love riding it. It rumbles, it handles exceptionally well, it's a gorgeous metallic mango orange color....but I would get twice as many thumbs ups and questions if I were on a v-twin powered BTR replica. There's just someting so graceful, yet raw and unrefined about them.

    What about converting one of these.....145 PSI 5 HP Twin Cylinder Air Compressor Pump

    Let's see...a section of a small block chevy roller cam and 4 lifters housed in a billet aluminum block between the cylinders and spinning in greasable roller bearings turned at half crank rpm by an external cog belt. Pushrods leading to external shaft mount rockers off the head fasteners and pipe wyes welded into the heads for ports and valve seats and spring seats....a few thousand later and you've got.....AN EXPERIMENT !

    Sorry, I got carried away.....I often think about such crazy stuff to put me to sleep at night.....and sometimes when I wake up....and at work.....and while my wife is complaining about ummm....something, can't remember what. :-||

    MHF
     
  11. motorhedfred

    motorhedfred Member

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    Check the cam location, valvetrain AND cylinders on the engine in the first video. Looks like I'm not the only one that sees engine parts on a compressor pump. That might be an abbreviated car camshaft nestled between the cylinders as well.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=few11kookdw

    The second video is a homebuilt V-twin that I saw in a magazine at the grocery store..."The Horse, Backstreet Choppers" built from two Briggs singles. May 2011...build details are in the magazine. Tell me either one of these wouldn't make a great BTR replica powerplant.... ya just can't. Yes, it can be done. I just wish I had the $ and patience.

    Home built engine in old Harley Davidson Hummer - YouTube

    MHF
     
    #11 motorhedfred, Nov 4, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  12. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    Motohedfred, you know its only a matter of time before a machinist joins our great forum and decides to build his own V-twin like the ones Tim Seiber has built.

    Maybe someone will entice Tim Seiber to join this fine forum, and offer his mini v-twins or singles for us tribute vintage style motorbike builders.

    Quote
    Hey forum members, do any of you Live near Tim Seiber in Chula Vista, California? He is an amazing machinist!

    I believe some of his Half scale 24-Inch BTR's are on display at Davenport, Iowa's museum Wheels Through Time.

    I wish we could commission him to build some engines for us vintage style tribute motor bike builders.

    If anyone lives close to him please try to contact him, maybe he'll sell us the plans for the engines he builds as far as I know he builds both the Indian & Harley engines!

    C.H.


    Thanks for your post Motorhedfred!

    Peace C.H.


     
  13. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    Ok, I couldn't help myself so I just had to find Tom Sieber, and that is what I did, am waiting and hoping he'll return my call to him.

    Peace C.H.


     
  14. Mr.B.

    Mr.B. Well-Known Member

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    #14 Mr.B., Nov 5, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2011
  15. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    Kirk, yes I made a fopah, I believe that Dick Winger, who owned 6 or 7 yes twenty-inch 1/2 scale BTR's are on display in the Winger family private museum.

    Interested in these half scale BTR's read this below! You can also go straight to Ed Youngbloods Motohistory and read even more about Dick Winger and his half scale BTR's!

    Quoted from "Motohistory"
    Dick Winger has taken the replication game in another direction, toward miniaturization. We have previously reported on half-scale Indian engines that Winger has brought to AMCA national meets (See Motohistory News & Views 3/4/2004, 4/25/2005, and 9/9/2005). First it was a Hedstrom twin, then an Indian eight-valve, both fabricated by Tom Sieber. This time, Winger showed up at Davenport with a complete miniature Indian racer assembled around his tiny eight-valve engine. He reports that while Sieber can offer copies of the 50% scale Hedstrom, only one eight-valve miniature has and will be built.


    In 2000, the Wingers built a 4,000 square-foot facility on their property to house their own collections. We visited shortly thereafter, then returned recently to see how things had changed. The building behind the Winger's home in Sweetster is not just a motorcycle storage barn. It is climate-controlled, nicely appointed, tidy, and well-organized as a private museum. Though it is not open to the public, the Wingers are proud to share it with friends who appreciate our history and heritage.

    Very sad the passing of an amazing person!

    Richard “Dick” Winger died of cancer Monday May 17th
    2010 at 1:00 a.m.
    Dick had been at the Methodist Hospital in
    Indianapolis and started radiation treatments. He came back
    to Sweetser, Indiana, on May 3. Condolences may be sent to
    Wanda Winger, P. O. Box 333, Sweetser, IN 46987. Memorial
    contributions may be made to The Antique Motorcycle Foundation
    in care of: Raven-Choate Funeral Home, 1202 Kem
    Road, Marion, IN 46952.

    Dick Winger was a long time dedicated AMCA member. He
    was the AMCA Membership Director and served for 24 years.
    Dick was an AMCA Honorary Member. He was the president
    of the Maumee Valley Chapter. Dick will be greatly missed.
    Our thoughts and prayers are with Wanda and Family.
    Richard was born on June 5, 1935, in Grant County, Pleasant
    Township, the son of the late Bechtel and Esther (Butler)
    Winger. On October 5, 1974, he married Wanda Cavins. She
    survives.
    He was a member of the Indiana Army National Guard. He
    was a telephone engineer, and was Owner and President of
    Sweetser Telephone Co. until his retirement in 1998.
    I meet Dick in 1998 while working for the Excelsion-Henderson
    Motorcycle Company. Dick had already been involved
    with the Hanlon’s as a historical advisor for the brand. His stories,
    wisdom and wit were wonderful and I truly enjoyed his
    company on many occasions, even if I was an “Indian guy”.
    Richard was known worldwide as an expert in antique
    motorcycles and was Curator of Yesterdays Wheels, a transportation
    museum in Sweetser.
    He was an honorary member
    of the Antique Motorcycle Club of America; and was a board
    member of the A.M.C.A. and the Antique Motorcycle Foundation.
    He was also a member of the Indian 4 Cylinder Motorcycle
    Club; President of the Maumee Valley Chapter A.M.C.A.,
    a member of the Ohio Valley Chapter A.M.C.A.; Sons of the
    Union Veterans of the Civil War; the Pierce Arrow Society
    and the Antique Automobile Club of America. He was also a
    member of the Converse F&AM Lodge #601; the Ft. Wayne
    Valley of Scottish Rite; the Mizpah Shrine and the O.E.S. of
    Okemos, Michigan.
    Survivors include, wife, Wanda Winger of Sweetser, Indiana;
    son, Scott Winger (Vicki) of Sweetser,
    Indiana; step-son, Steve Sovey (Kelly)
    of Newport, Michigan; step-daughter,
    Lisa Sovey of Newport, Michigan; sister,
    Pamela Sims of Peru, Indiana; 8 grandchildren
    & 5 great-grandchildren.



    I hope everyone enjoys this history about the man Dick Winger and his half scale BTR's!

    C.H.
     
  16. motorhedfred

    motorhedfred Member

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  17. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    Update, I finally heard back from Tom Sieber, yes he actually called me!

    He has the complete fully functional mini half scale 1915 Indian V-Twin engines available!

    This engines are not for the average builder, in other words they are very expensive!!!!

    However, there might be 1 or 2 members / custom builders here in the forum who have the skills to maybe build Tom Sieber a custom BTR frame in exchange for an engine, or maybe a joint venture!

    Anyone have any idea's as to who could build this machinist a frame for his half scale 1915 engine!

    C.H.

    [​IMG]

    Here's Dick Winger holding one of Tom Siebers reproduction half scale Cyclone engines below.
    [​IMG]

    Wanna see more pictures of these engines with Dick Winger & Machinist Tom Sieber click on link below:
    Crazyhorse Vintage Board Track Racers pictures by ICrazyhorse - Photobucket


     
    #17 Crazy Horse, Nov 8, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2011
  18. brett7777

    brett7777 New Member

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    #18 brett7777, Nov 11, 2011
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  19. motorhedfred

    motorhedfred Member

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    Ok, remember my ramblings about turning an HF v-twin compressor into an I.C. engine ? Well..... I was shopping Craigslist and found something interesting. It's a 90 degree v-twin compressor with 1.75" bores and 2" stroke. It has nice round cooling fins on the cylinders and plenty of them. I bought it and the pics are here....

    Bicycles and BTRs pictures by motorhedfred - Photobucket

    There's a nice big tapered roller bearing behind the round plate on the side. The crank and rods look plenty beefy, but I doubt I'll be able to use the heads. The motorcycle in the pic is my 250cc Hyosung. I put the compressor pump in front of it for size reference.

    I would like to try automatic, atmospheric intake valves and exposed rocker arms for the cam driven exhausts.

    Should be a challenge.

    MHF
     
  20. cobrafreak

    cobrafreak New Member

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    I think you can do it if you have the determination and tools.
     

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