major switch in the works

GoldenMotor.com

deacon

minor bike philosopher
Jan 15, 2008
8,114
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north carolina
I am almost ready to move on to chain drive. I have emailed Stewie about his mongoose 20" wheel with the double sprocket. He parted out some mongoose kids bikes. He has the 450 motor as well. I can jack that mutha up to 36 volts for almost 700 watts.

I will have to sell these 600watt 24v motors on ebay I expect to help pay for this switch. I'll probably keep one friction drive and sell off all my spare parts. That should help pay for the change over.
 

deacon

minor bike philosopher
Jan 15, 2008
8,114
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north carolina
I am starting to rethink it the friction drive is working so much better after I threatened to move to chain drive. I swear the thing is alive.
 

zabac70

New Member
Mar 17, 2010
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Threats sometimes work on things and sometimes things take it personally and fights you back (personal experience talking). Murphy's law has plenty to do with it. Use your advantage .
 

deacon

minor bike philosopher
Jan 15, 2008
8,114
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north carolina
Well I bought the wheel from stewie on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemVersion&item=330430462090&view=all&tid=439253439014.. Since I like 20" wheels it should be fine for me.

I am not going for the geared motor for a couple of reasons. One I have a 600watt 24v motor with an axle mount that is a work horse. I use them on the rhino drive. Even with max pressure on the friction drive they manage to pull the bike along. I expect it to work fine. I am going to have to convert one of them so that the sprockets match up. I think the best thing to do would be to weld a #25 sprocket to the bike wheel's motor sprocket. A 80 tooth #25 chain is sprocket is 6 1/2 inches in diameter. I expect that the bicycle motor drive sprocket will be about three inches. The sprocket on the motor is smaller than that on a bicycle chain motor so that will skew it even farther. I understand that the motor is geared down at about six to one.

If I have 11 teeth on the motor sprocket then 66 teeth would be the motor gearing match more or less but then there is the difference in the size of the sprockets between the motor and the real wheel on the real bike to take into consideration. I know I can't match it up but I would like to get as close as possible with the things that are available to me.

I ran a similar setup on a push trailer with w 16" wheel and it did just fine. In a week or so I will have a new toy to try to make work. It may or may not be more efficient than the Rhino drive we shall see.

Tell me guys, will an electric motor with a built in free wheel run backwards. Thats the question of the day.
 
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deacon

minor bike philosopher
Jan 15, 2008
8,114
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north carolina
After messin' with motors this afternoon I decided to just break down and buy the motor that came off the mongoose that the wheel came from. So I'm going to have a 450 24v motor and 20" wheel in the mail next week I think.

I did a few quick changes to the bike I plan to use for the chain driven bike. I had to add some more brakes since the bike coming in most likely will not have a coaster brake. So lets see how this goes.
 

deacon

minor bike philosopher
Jan 15, 2008
8,114
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north carolina
I'm going with pull brakes the old caliper looking things. I expect the dead motor drag will be enough to make it slow down. I put a front brake and a rear pull brake with the brake handle on the handle bars. No jeep type emergency brake this time.

I took the spare Rhino drive off the bike today and experimented with motor placement. I don't think it will be too hard to make it work. I am trying to find some photographs of the Mongoose that it came from so I can see how the motor was mounted on it. So far no luck.
 

zabac70

New Member
Mar 17, 2010
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From picture in TreeHugger , it seems that motor is mounted on swivel arm (soft tail) just in front of the rear wheel (there is a 200 W version, same look , but no good pictures as well) , so it moves up and down together with the wheel. In your case it can go (without changes on the bike frame) above rear wheel (under and behind the seat). Chain would be , probably, somewhat longer. It shouldn't be a problem to mount it , with some welding (I assume that it goes on some kind of plate with bolts sticking out, or giant hose clamp). If it goes on the plate , you can even avoid welding (bolt trough). If you post some pics of the motor , maybe we can help further (with ideas - work is all yours :) ).
It says on the site that it has a curie motor and there is a plenty solutions for mounting these (pictures I mean).
 
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deacon

minor bike philosopher
Jan 15, 2008
8,114
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north carolina
yes i have the currie on the way. I have never used that particular one. most of mine fit inside a mounting plate and the plate bolts to the axle. This one might take a little time to figure out but Im sure I can do it. I just dont like dealing with chains but this one is for damp days.
 

deacon

minor bike philosopher
Jan 15, 2008
8,114
9
0
north carolina
So Stewie from ebay is shipping my 450watt motor that will probab end up being almost 700 watts which is the max legal motor anyway. The 20" wheel and a 8mm chain for the bike. Total price for those items 70 odd dollars shipping included. I am going to put it on my old rhino bike and keep the drive as a spare.

So this is what I expect the change over to cost if I were buying everything that I have already laying around.

So motor chain and wheel 72 bucks I think it ended up costing me
24/36 volt controller from tnc. 32 bucks including shipping...
throttle 15 including shipping I think. Total about 125 bucks... (probably saved a couple of bucks having it shipped from tnc at the same time I don't remember.

stewie has the throttle and controller from the mongoose but I wanted to use the heavy duty tnc controller I had.

Once I get it and put it together I'll let you know how it performs.
 

zabac70

New Member
Mar 17, 2010
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My prediction (and I'm guessing here) that it will out perform any friction drive you have. Why are you in war with chains? Proper alignment of sprockets and tension of chain and it works like a dream (ribbed belt is quieter , but more expensive).
 

deacon

minor bike philosopher
Jan 15, 2008
8,114
9
0
north carolina
I rode the gas bike I built and it was in line. It did have the right tension and would do fine for weeks, then one day out of the blue it jumped the sprocket, and it locked the motor and threw the chain tensioner into the spokes of the wheel. Needless to say It scared the devil out of me. So I thought, I did something wrong. I changed the chain and set the motor chain to the wheel for the tension, and a tensioner on the pedal chain to take up the slack. It worked beautifully for several weeks, then you guessed it. Thew the chain and the chain locked up the motor. Yes locked the bike up and threw it into a field. Again it scared the devil out of me. Since then I have no use for high speed chains. At least not on anything I build.

Oh yeah my rhino bike drive has a chain and it jumps off now and then for no reason at all. It will be fine for months then pop its off and I'm sitting there with a spinning engine, but at least with that I can get it back on and be off again. Chains don't like me at all.

And frankly I think friction drive is getting a bad rap. I think with the same motor, it will do the same thing. With the right tension, I believe friction drive is an effective system or I wouldn't use it. Some of the guys in gasoline friction drive with a good motor could get 40 mph with them. Mine uses a drive wheel from a scooter that would do around ten miles an hour with a kid of 70 lbs on board. Once on a bike the bike will do around ten mph with my 200 lbs on board.

Now i do know the modern motors are better than the scooter motor. The hub brushless motor I had didn't do any better, but it was way under powered as well. It had less than half the watts of the rhino drive. It got about twice the range per ah... It had less speed and I found it inferior in every way. I hear the only disadvantage of friction drive in the real world is tire wear and slippage. Well if I want to run through four inch puddles I can with my drive, if the tension is set strong. I can get much better range if the tension is set less. Tire wear has been minimal so far since there is much less wear than the tire would wear on a concrete road. It accelerates the wear yes, but not all that much. I also live in a very hilly area, hence the name high point, so I can't measure my range and performance against anyone else's.

Have you ever tried a friction drive bike. They still make kits for gasoline friction drive that are pretty expensive and a friction drive no motor kit as well. Friction drive may well be as good a drive as the system I am installing next. I wanted to at least say I tried it. So I will know how it works soon.
 
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Cabinfever1977

New Member
Mar 23, 2009
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Upstate,NY
Deacon that is the electric bike i used to have,actually mine was the model right before that one but virtually the same and i bought it from walmart.
I know how the motor was attached to the frame and everything about the bike.
The motor is mounted on a plate with 4 holes on the rear fork behind the seat post.
The plate is welded to the frame.
I think i have the motor,battery, and controller coming back to me but the rest was scraped.
I should have kept the bike instead of going to gas, cause now i have to go to court for the gas bike. The battery had died and i had bought a gas kit, now im getting rid of the gas kit and getting electric scooter parts,i should have just bought new batterys.
 

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deacon

minor bike philosopher
Jan 15, 2008
8,114
9
0
north carolina
I thought it looked like it was a welded frame parts. I'll have to check my frame to see if it is steel before i start. If not I'll find some way to attach it. The motor I'm getting is coming with the motor mount. And the wheel is stock along with the chain.

It is going to replace one of my Rhino drives, so the frame is already setup for 20" wheels. I have lots of room in the frame for the motor since the frame is from a 26" bike. I think I saw some hangers on one of the mongoose models that were welded in the middle of the frame pipe. I will never be able to do that but maybe some washers will line up the motor. I would say that it should be pretty straight forward but if I say that it will be a two week nightmare to line the darn thing up right.

I wonder what kind of power it will have at 36v. I'm really curious to see that. I will most likely pull a power trailer as well as my chubby butter.
 

deacon

minor bike philosopher
Jan 15, 2008
8,114
9
0
north carolina
If you get the parts back you can just stick them onto a bike frame. If you look in the swap shop I posted the email for the man who sold me the rear wheel and the motor for my bike. He has a bunch of controllers and throttles left. Some of the rear wheels and the front with brakes as well. If you liked the system pick up a thrift store big frame and switch out the parts from a twenty inch bike to give you a little more room on it. Just a thought.
 

zabac70

New Member
Mar 17, 2010
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Belgrade , Serbia
@deacon
I've tried friction drive , but it was a gas motor on it (veeeery old thing - made some time after WW II). It had great acceleration as well. Three or four years ago , I've set on a e bike (brush less hub - made by Crystalyte) and from that moment , I'm into electric vehicles. I've had only one e bike so far and I had to sell it (finance problems) , but I will get (make) another one (soon I hope). I have , also , tested (whenever I got a chance) , many different setups on e bikes and researched a lot (and lots of people lost their will to live in a process - I was very persistent with questions and boring).
I know that building bikes keeps you busy , so you try different things (since you can't drive any more). Torque overcome hills and that is directly connected with a geometry of motor , not Amp or Volt rating. In lack of that , excess power is needed (and wasted). Lost power also hurt the range. That's where talk of efficiency comes in place. Chains can be unreliable , but less than friction drive. Brush less hubs beats them both. Of course , proper installation and some know-how is needed. Now , in your case (balance problems , not much speed needed , problems with longer pedaling...), there is a few ways to solve it. First you can use any drive you like (just reliable enough) and build a trike (and by that , I mean soft tails on rear - kind of APAX - plenty of room for batteries between rear wheels). It is stable , allows leaning and can be wide as you are, (22" or so is enough) , so it won't be a problem trough narrow passes. Also , you can loose coaster wheels. Second, if you use plain frame , you need to build VERY reliable system (and you going for chain drive now) , which means that everything custom should be well designed (for the purpose) and put together in precision manner(properly aligned chain sprockets and healthy chain don't brake , unless hit , excess power or internal failure , invisible at check up). Not saying that you can't do that , it just seems to me that you avoid welding and machining , which is necessary for these kind of stuff. Third , you can use plenty big(AH) batteries and feed the Amps to inefficient system (Volts are limited due to required reduced speed). This involves a lot of weight (if SLA) , so that is the worst solution.
Some friends and I built , few years ago , e bike from an old frame (similar to yours) and car starter and car batteries. Talking about efficiency , it was one of the most inefficient I've ever heard of , but it could pull a house and throw you on the back at start (it had some relays instead of controller so it was on or off and delta-star wiring for speeds). Range was (at relatively flat) only about 10 km (~7 miles) and speed was , well , very unsafe (we passed by some speeding scooters as if they were parked). It was heavy as planet. Point is that even inefficient system can work , you just need to figure it out, how to use best of what you have. Oh , bike broke in half after some jumping from improvised ramps , in case you wonder what happened to it.
I'm only replaying on your posts so often, because I follow what you're doing (it is very interesting to me and sometimes , you remind me of Don Quixote ); It is like favorite TV series , so the first thing (after checking mail) is to see what you're up to.
To resume: proper gearing and good construction and design of the system (whatever system it is) and you'll be ready to go places.
 

deacon

minor bike philosopher
Jan 15, 2008
8,114
9
0
north carolina
Im actually looking forward to downsizing the motor on the rhino as much as building the chain drive. I purchased a 350 watt 24v motor which I will of course run a 36v. The one I bought can run backwards so it will work on the drive no matter it's designed rotation. On the rhino it wouldn't matter I could switch it to either side.

The Chain bike guy has controllers 24v 450 watt at least and throttles that are universal along with wheels and a very few motors left. I swapped emails with him last night. Since the twist throttles I got from tnc sucked eggs, I posted his email in the swap shop. No I don't get a cut. I never heard anything bad about the mongoose throttle so I will probably pick up a couple for spares one day.

Yes hauling the trailer around amounts to a trike actually but with a soft connection. I can haul around three very large batteries in the new trailer and still back it out of the shop. I would really like a lighter battery load so that I can take them out of the trailer to work on. Lifting those three 17ah from a one foot high trailer bed is a dog. That's pretty much (and of course to pass time) is why I am fooling around with the nimh batteries.