I understand that the OP did not ask for personal opinions. However, when I read or hear of a situation or incident, I automatically think how I would feel if I were in that situation. If a cop pulled me over and I hadn't done anything wrong, I've got better things to do than jibber jabber with the cops. And usually when I think of how a situation would make me feel, I share that with the person who was involved in the situation. A lot of people are uncomfortable with someone saying they don't like cops. I don't care. I'm sorry if my personal opinions offend people, but they're my opinions, they're not likely to change based on how other people feel about them, and I'm entitled to express them. If I told you I had a rusty nail shoved through my foot at breakfast this morning, are you not likely to imagine how it would make you feel if it happened to you? Are you not likely to share that with me or someone else?
First cop interaction
- Thread starter woogie_man
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I couldn't have said it any better woogie, in fact it's pretty much a parallel to my own experiences & reactions, so much depends on the situation at hand.
To be completely honest, I've had far more unfortunate encounters with law enforcement then positive - some inexcusable & an absolute violation, a few understandable in a broader context, if still inappropriate. Time and again, from bored rural officers to rabidly aggressive urban I've been interrogated, poked & prodded, both myself and my vehicle searched & stripped with little to no cause. From guns drawn to cuffed & stuffed, I've never actually been arrested as despite their preconceptions, they've never had any cause to hold me.
Nor am I about to give them one.
Make no mistake, this doesn't mean I would, or advocate that folks should "roll over & play dead" for the man like good little citizen drones, that only makes things worse for everyone in the long run, evidenced repeatedly throughout history - but the immediate situation, the second those flashy lights splash, well... that's a decidedly different situation. There's no broader historical context or philosophy that will aid you, you've been engaged as a likely threat, targeted & your reaction - no matter it's validity or justification, will dictate the formula they follow from there on out.
I am not defending or condemning, rather stating what should be obvious - the fact is that in their situation the overwhelming majority of contact they have with the populace is negative, no one likes to be pulled over & interrogated, it's insulting when you've not done anything, terrifying if you have. As police deal with this every day of their lives, even off duty most are uncomfortable to some extent around them. As a predictable result & due to the sheer volume of encounters - they dehumanize us into potential levels of threat, classified by stereotype, profiling rather then appraising us for the individuals we actually are. Morality & ethics have nothing to do with it, desensitized to any "normal" human interaction they haven't the time or inclination for such lofty ideals when the situation they're approaching could be anyone from a clueless, well meaning kid to someone who'll shoot them in the head for no more then bragging rights alone.
The result is painfully predictable, even mechanical, it becomes the most basic of action = reaction situations. You act like prey and you will get bit. As their prey is the "bad guy", the bad guy in their eyes being anyone who might have something to hide, any overt resentment or hostility triggers a "red flag" reaction, as does equally any blatant attempts to appease or dissemble. You've now been pigeonholed, it's likely only going to get worse from here regardless of any actual innocence or guilt, your "rights" immediately irrelevant, superseded by their sense of self-preservation & irritation alike.
The right or wrong of it cannot be addressed in that moment, you're engaged in an inescapable routine until the immediate crisis is past, your every action of absolute importance as it will dictate their reaction, the difference between an uncomfortable inconvenience, a night in jail or even laying dead in the street will be decided not just by them, but by you, right there and then.
So... distaste aside, you nod & calmly hand them your cards when asked, respond courteously to the questioning, no sudden moves, no snarky sarcastic comments, no volunteering of any information or opinion above & beyond what's asked for and just wait a bit, soon enough the routine will be seen to completion, the dance over you'll see more often then not a clear shift in behavior, the threat dispelled - now it's far more likely you can actually engage the person behind the badge if you would so choose... or see them in court later for the clear violation of your rights, most likely without the added indignity of a face full of mace.
Does this sound like immoral & undue persecution, a blatant disregard for individualism, biased & based on no more then preconception, stereotypes derogatory by their very nature? It is, truly & that's a fact - so why is it any more justifiable when such judgement is yours & not theirs? Like they, you've truly no idea who they really are, blinded by any presentation that would substantiate that stereotype, you see a badge & hate all cops, they see a punk and hate all "rebels" & the cycle self-perpetuates.
Far better to do what woogie's done, to wait & see, to give them a chance to get past their preconception & then engage in a friendly exchange should it be offered, to treat and be treated as equals with a common interest, whatever that interest may be as this only benefits us all - it is after all this lack of fair treatment that caused the resentment in the first place, to return it, unilaterally denouncing all authority figures as "a cop is a cop" is hypocrisy defined, you as much the problem as they.
To be so self righteous, one must first at least try to be righteous.
Why is my judgment more justified? How often have cops been the victim of innocent rebels (for the sake of this argument, I'm excluding actual criminals who want to and have done harm to police officers, it's a real matter but it doesn't apply to this situation, hence the use of the word "innocent"). The fact is that cops abuse their power to harass innocent people, and I have every right to judge them for it. It's wrong and should not be allowed. So I feel my judgment is justified. If I see a cop on a gas motorized bike around here, I'm throwing my bike in the river. I don't know how I can be more clear than that.
lol, I'm not so naive as to expect you to change, you've made your position known & it precludes such quite clearly. I am doing no more then what you've declared an entitlement;
...I really don't care what your justifications may be any more then how your insistence on their presentation may effect us all - you've stated your case, I in turn state mine & given your obvious proclivities, not to the end of convincing you of anything but rather merely to demonstrate in general, that not all agree with your views, despite your insistence on attempting the inclusion of others, motorized bicyclists and/or self-professed "rebels" alike.
*shrug* I was after all, expounding & applauding woogie's good sense, maturity & general responsibility
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I'm not asking or expecting anyone to agree with me, nor do I care whether they do or not. I stand alone, whether or not others share my opinions does not mean I stand with them nor that I want to, nor does it mean I stand against them. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, sharing them doesn't make us brothers nor does a difference of opinion make us enemies. We are all free to choose what we accept or don't accept. It doesn't always give us the power to change it, but we still have the right to choose. I don't like brussel sprouts, in fact I think they're disgusting. My wife loves them. She doesn't eat fish, I do. The list can go on, but the point is that we are still married despite our few differences because we each know the other and choose to accept them. People may not agree with me, but we're all members of a community. There are things about certain people here I don't like, but I don't open my mouth about it and I don't shun them. I'm sure many feel the same way about me, and I'm free to not care, so I don't. If a cop were to join this forum, I would respect them as a member of this community the same as anyone else. As long as he isn't riding through my neighborhood, I don't care. Just don't expect me to treat them the same in person, because I won't. Everyone has the right to their own opinions and I respect that. No one has to agree with me and I'm known to change my opinions when they become popular anyway. I'm a complicated individual
If someone bases their response to a law enforcement officer based on one's pre-concieved notions on how the encounter will play out, what makes this any different than how the officer responds to you? Sounds kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Just the opinion of an old fart that's been around the block a time or three.
(No slams or ill will directed towards anyone. Just my opinion.)
Just the opinion of an old fart that's been around the block a time or three.
(No slams or ill will directed towards anyone. Just my opinion.)
Friday I rode my electric to the critical mass ride. I got there about 15 minutes before the ride started. Within a minute of parking a cop on a Segway rode up and ask if my bike had a motor, like that would be a bad thing of something. I said, yes, it's a electric bicycle. As soon as he heard the words, electric bicycle, his attitude changed, and he was like no chit, how far can you go on it, and all that stuff. The only thing I'm careful not to mention is how fast it goes. I always say it's limited to 20 mph, which is true if I use the limiter.
I don't base my response to an officer on any pre-conceived notions. If you read all my previous posts, you'd know that if a cop pulls me over, it's yes sir and no sir (respect) and if I've done nothing wrong, i'll be on my way. Nothing pre-conceived about that. If the cop is cool, I'll be cool. If he is rude, i'll file a complaint. If he asks me a lot of questions about motorized bicycles, i'll tell him to google it. As far as his justifications for inappropriate harassment, I don't care what they are, the same as he does not care what my reasons are for not liking cops. We are all free, most of us just don't realize how free we are to make every single choice for ourselves instead of doing what we're told. The cops have the same individual freedoms that the rest of us do.
so goes this weeks sons of motorbikearchary mixed with a little fargo... fx tv would be proud to use this story line.
Biknut if I had the nuts like you I would be on a bike like yours.....but I know the world my wife would put me in.
As long as your attitude is good, up here in nd, the cops attitudes are typically good.
As long as your attitude is good, up here in nd, the cops attitudes are typically good.
I hear that Woogie. I grew up in California but lived in ND from '01-'07 The people there are great, even the occasional cop I had to deal with.
Hard-ass no-BS people. My kind of people. Hands down my favorite state. I plan on moving back someday!
Hard-ass no-BS people. My kind of people. Hands down my favorite state. I plan on moving back someday!
Just get on yer bikes and ride you crybaby marshmallow, candy ass, sissy waw waw girly-men, boys and girls!!! Let law enforcement do what it does and stay out of the way and obey the rules of the road.
Know what's around you and also know they are out to kill you.......not the cops so much as all the other idiots that are out on the road!
Share the road and be careful.....your life depends on it.
Know what's around you and also know they are out to kill you.......not the cops so much as all the other idiots that are out on the road!
Share the road and be careful.....your life depends on it.
Something l'd think of -and might have the balls to speak about (or maybe not)
you show good critical thinking skills.
good observation Sir and again another excellent question involving good critical thinking skills.
likewise my state does not require the above items either but my city does - and state traffic laws allow for cities to add extra reguirements - Moore in fact outlaws Gopeds! (not sure about MB).......my city requires a windscreen if you are not going to wear goggles and also a speedometer, as well as headlight (which must be on during daylight - which I don't do out of pragmatism of not wishing to kill my batteries for no valid reason - so yes I'm in violation here - but never got pulled over - yet..
I added a horn (not required)
I have a "goped" which is restricted to 25 mph roads, while MB are allowed on roads with 30 mph speed limits. (when the city allows either/or).
if you mean a relic of olden times not expressly outlawed ...........yet (like "Horseless Cariage laws), citizen's Arrests, Common Law, Natural Law.
fully agree - and IMO the less "the State" (Cops) are involved the better, lest we lose our legal status.
I'm a FreeRadio proponent (and maybe a little more in the past) and although the "Airwaves are Free" - as declaired in 1934 - it in effect has been "bought by the state" by the Rich via the fcc since then.
I do not think we should "show a light" unto that which is legal vaguely to clarify that which is now legal and in fact may no longer be after clarifying once The State gets farther involved.
my 2-cents anyway ;-/.
I agree - there is a bias (for CARS TOO) - for Electric = green (and kewl)
Gas (car or bike) = bad - old school, not "green enough"
American culture is fixated on the "instant pill to fix anything" add the current "gadget fixation" and we have a love of anything electric - from E-bikes to 80,000 dollar Teslas (utterly unrealistic and unaffordable for 99.9999 percent of all Americans)..........regardless of the fact that battery tech is fully stuck 50yrs back and until that changes Electric cars/bike will NEVER replace gas power equivalents.
But I being an old pessimist! - Tech will fix all things!
A pox on Microcars of old (like the 600cc Honda Z --and the many still in Europe/Japan ---we are too good for microcars.....unless they are ELECTRIC - then their "cool, trendy" ----who cares if they cost 4 times as much and have no range!! they are a fashion statement.
as for myself - I'm still happy with my manual Yaris with 126k 37 mgh 13.8 K new, with a tow hitch and trailer - hails all I need so far.............
and welcome a Fiat 500 (manual of course - NEVER again will I suffer an Automatic (aka the Acura (other than that she was a great car- nice firm handly before Yaris (which was a sad boat before I firmed her up with stiff springs to make her handle well like my former Acura) next time I buy a car in a couple of years.
fiat 500's are "Americanized" (Boaty- BTW for anyone interested - I test drove one). I'll have to shell out a grand for Springs/Shocks like I did for my Yaris in order to have a decently handling (firm) car.
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