Beefing up springers

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dracothered

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Jul 25, 2012
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Ok this came up in another thread http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=39534&page=4 starting at post #34. It looks as if the springer forks like these have a weak point.





What I am wondering is how hard would it be to insert a welded in bushing where the pivot bolt goes through the big fork tubes (See top picture of pivot bolt)? Could this be done without weakening the fork tubes or is there another way. Yes I know I could just find a better more costly pair of springer forks, but if these can be improved for not that much cost why would I want to.
 

atombikes

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Feb 14, 2010
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This is a pic of the bike that your thread refers to:


I have two thoughts, both backed by a bunch of years designing and building bicycles (and I'm a mechanical engineer, if that matters)...

First, the above pictured bike is using a lowrider style of springer fork, which due to the increased cantilever distance, is placing a lot of strain on that pierced sheetmetal joint. The more cantilever, the more stress on that joint.

Secondly, that type of fork on this type of bike should, according to the laws of physics, make the bike unstable to varying degrees due to the negative trail value. A straight line drawn down thru the headtube should intersect with the ground at a point in front of a point on the ground that is perpendicular to the front axle. This condition is called positive trail, and results in a rideable bike. For this type of bike, a positive trail value that falls between .5" and 2" is generally the norm.

As shown in the above photo, that imaginary line down thru the headtube intersects the ground way behind the line perpendicular to the axle. This condition is known as negative trail, and usually results in poor steering geometry. In this case, the subject bike has a headtube that is too vertical, and the offset in the fork (called rake) is too great.

The example I like to give is a shopping cart wheel; it has a trail value of zero, since it's "headtube" is vertical with the ground. Try turning the shopping cart wheel so it is facing forward, then try to push it forward. The first thing it tries to do is flip around; this is due to the zero trail. If you could rotate the steerer of the shopping cart wheel back about the wheels axle, you could then orient the wheel facing forward and push it forward without if flipping around.

On the other hand, if you could rotate the steerer forward about the wheels axle, upon pusing the wheel forward, it would immediately flip around- negative trail...

Positive trail is a stabilizing factor in bicycle steering geometry, not sure I would want a motorized bike with negative trail? Over the years I have learned that people will condition themselves to ride just about anything.

Not sure about the quality of the materials being used in these types of forks? That might play a part? I have a set of Nirve spring action forks, and although they seem to be decent quality, the joint we are discussing here is exactly where my eyes gravitate to when looking for point of failure. It really should be sleeved.

Anyway, long story short, you could maybe drill/file out the hole slightly and epoxy a bushing in there?

Here's a pic illustrating the whole rake/trail concept:



And a link to trail calculator:

http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/trail.asp?calculate2=yes#Actual Trail Calculator
 
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dracothered

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Jul 25, 2012
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Howell, MI.
This is a pic of the bike that your thread refers to:
(SNIP)

Not sure about the quality of the materials being used in these types of forks? That might play a part? I have a set of Nirve spring action forks, and although they seem to be decent quality, the joint we are discussing here is exactly where my eyes gravitate to when looking for point of failure. It really should be sleeved.

Anyway, long story short, you could maybe drill/file out the hole slightly and epoxy a bushing in there?

Here's a pic illustrating the whole rake/trail concept:



And a link to trail calculator:

http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/trail.asp?calculate2=yes#Actual Trail Calculator
I'm not sure I would trust epoxy to hold like it should if a bushing was installed there. I think welding or brazing would be a better option. Or maybe some heavy washer on each side welded in place would give a little more meat to support the pivot area.
 

Rockenstein

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Feb 8, 2009
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What I am wondering is how hard would it be to insert a welded in bushing where the pivot bolt goes through the big fork tubes (See top picture of pivot bolt)? Could this be done without weakening the fork tubes or is there another way. Yes I know I could just find a better more costly pair of springer forks, but if these can be improved for not that much cost why would I want to.
I machined some brass bushings for my springer and silver brazed them in when I was building my bike back in 2009...still holding up very well today as you see in the last picture. I use an axle from an old front wheel for the pivot bolt too, the original bolt was too sloppy and soft for my taste.
 

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atombikes

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Feb 14, 2010
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Northern VA
I machined some brass bushings for my springer and silver brazed them in when I was building my bike back in 2009...still holding up very well today as you see in the last picture. I use an axle from an old front wheel for the pivot bolt too, the original bolt was too sloppy and soft for my taste.
This looks very good. I may do something similar with my springer forks. I suppose the little bit of material you remove for the bushing isn't enough to matter.
 

dracothered

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Jul 25, 2012
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Howell, MI.
This looks very good. I may do something similar with my springer forks. I suppose the little bit of material you remove for the bushing isn't enough to matter.
That would be my question if removing the material in the fork would weaken it or would soldering in the bushing replace the lost strength?
 

Rockenstein

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Feb 8, 2009
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I had to open up the pivot holes on mine slightly, think I went up to about a 1/2". If your bushings reach all the way through like mine do and you get a nice fillet of brazing material on both sides you should be good to go.

Couple tips..

Roughing up the OD of the bushing and the fork's pivot hole so the brazing material has something to bite on is always good.

Preheat the bushings a bit before inserting for brazing. The thin steel the forks legs are formed out of will be way too hot by time the chunkier bushing is up to proper brazing temp.
 
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dracothered

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Jul 25, 2012
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Howell, MI.
Hey thanks you all for the info and I hope I didn't come off as if I didn't believe what you said. I only ask or make statements when I am not sure of what was done and if they come across that I am being a know it all sorry about that. I just want to be clear about how it is all done and how effective it is.

I'm certainly no engineer, but then again I have done many shade tree repairs and mods on lots of things. Again thanks for the help...
 

Rockenstein

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Feb 8, 2009
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Hey thanks you all for the info and I hope I didn't come off as if I didn't believe what you said.
No not at all friend :)

I'm certainly no engineer
Me either!! :eek:

Again thanks for the help...
No problem, hope the info helps you toughen up your springer so it will last and not cause you any grief :)

PS: I'll add that after about 3 months of riding I locked out the spring in my springer with a length of steel tube and a couple washers slid over the spring adjustment bolt. I like the solid feel as opposed to the un-damped bounce of the spring.
 
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