Cannonball DIYs a CG

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cannonball2

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Oct 28, 2010
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Colonial Coast USA.
Bought a totally unassembled engine so I could hands on every part. Figured it beats tearing into an assembled engine. Turns out to be a GT5 I believe which should be a 38mm stroke engine. Anybody have experience with these?
Parts look good and the cylinder has the best plating of any I have had so far. Ports are nice and crisp with almost no flashing, transfers do have the common ridge though.
Don't plan to mod it much, but do plan upgrades. I will run SKF bearings(ordered) and a very high quality caged roller for the wrist pin(got) There are plenty of little things I plan for longevity and reliability.
Im considering modding/converting the clutch to a wet unit using M/C plates. Figured it will extend gear life and maybe quiet them down. Just in the research stages now, but looks like pit bike plates may fit.
 

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maniac57

Old, Fat, and still faster than you
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Get those ridges out of the transfers while it's apart. Won't make a huge difference alone, but with some mild porting it can really wake her up.
There is a TON of power lost in these crappy transfer ports and anything you do to reduce charge contamination is well worth it.
 

cannonball2

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Oct 28, 2010
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Thanks for the advice M57, will do. Plan to clean and match the transfers, and basically just clean and smooth the ports with out altering the timing at this point. Still all about bottom end.
Have read both Gordon Jennings and Graham Bells books twice now and will incorporate several good ideas for longevity/reliability.
Here are pics of the three cranks I could build this engine around. First pic is the Dax 40mm. Its the nicest manufacturing wise of the three, next is the 38mm GT5 FM80 crank it is second nicest, and last is the is the 1/2 breed 38mm last in execution.
Opinions on which crank to use? I realize a low pin piston would have to be used with the Dax and 1/2B cranks, not a problem to get one.
I favor the Dax, the 1/2B is said to be smoother and has the largest weights(a better stuffer) The GT5 is a bit heavier than the Dax and has a 114mm rod rather than the 110 rods on the other two.
The jug looks like a common 66cc unit with rather small ports, although the transfers seem nicely angled up and to the back of the jug.
So seems like this jug will work with either the GT5 crank and piston or the Dax 40mm and the low pin piston. Looks like the 1/2B will come up low in the hole.

Thoughts?

BTW the pit bike friction discs miss fitting into the GC clutch by .004". So much for that idea. Thinking of making clutch pucks of cork, they will work with oil.
 

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cannonball2

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Oct 28, 2010
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Got some small but important details done. Used my wifes jewelry file to remove/smooth all the razor sharp edges from the crank around the key ways and the crank ends where the seals pass over. I know they don't do this in the factory and am pretty amazed the seals survive the install.
Also chamfered the pistons bottom edge about 1/2mm then rounded it with fine sand paper. The idea is the sharp machined edge acts a an oil scraper removing the oil mist from the cylinder wall making it harder on the piston/rings. This will allow some oil to stay on the cylinder walls for lube.
Got a good port match on the transfers and removed the ridge generally found near the top of the port. Also cleaned and shaped the intake and exhaust port without changing the timing. Guess I am going to run the GT5 crank. Its extra length should bring the piston to the top, though maybe not down far enough on the intake. May require piston/port trimming unless this jug is specific to the crank. Wont know til I get the bearings.
 

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cannonball2

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Oct 28, 2010
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Converting to a wet clutch sounds like a good idea CB, - I'll be interested to see how that works out :)
Its still in the think stage. Looking at and for the right material for the pucks. Can drill the lowest bolt hole from inside to be a drain and add a filler at the top. Should only take a few ounces of oil. Should also maybe extend the crank seals life. Would eliminate the periodic greasing of the gear.
 

Davezilla

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I've been looking at a way to convert the clutches on these to a wet clutch and there are a few materials that work well in an oil bath... cork and also the clutch lining paper used on motorcycle clutches as well as automatic transmission clutches.

my idea was to scan one of the clutch pucks and make a G code so I can CNC cut out 15 of them out of 1/4" thick aluminum like 6061 T6 or 7075 T6, then bond the material to each side so the clutch gear only contacts the aluminum and not the friction material.

I just need to find out what cement they use to bond the paper or cork sheet to the clutch discs and see if I can get the clutch lining paper from somewhere, this'll allow the clutch to run wet and have the same or better holding strength as the current dry clutch.

Another option would be to use the clutch gear with the round holes and get a piece of aluminum bar stock the same size as the pucks (or slightly smaller than the holes in the clutch gear) and cuth the bar stock into slices that are the right (and all the same) thickness. These can be sliced easily and accurately on a lathe and a parting blade in the tool holder.

If you know a source for either the lining paper or the right bonding cement for these, I can cut the aluminum pucks on my CNC or slice the bar stock on my lathe. I can make enough pucks to do both bikes and one of us use the cork as a lining and the other use the lining paper then report back to see which one works best. I know cork has excellent holding ability but it might be too grabby to feather the clutch out.

i'm also looking at the other side of the mechanism to see if it can be improved without doing too much modification to the clutch cover to make the mechanism work smoother and more linear for better take offs from a dead stop. Part of the problem is that the engagement point has to be adjusted rediculously high so the clutch will be fully disengaged when locked out, but that's a lever issue, the other part is the clutch cam is designed more for engaged or disengaged and not to be feathered out, not to mention the cam wears on the bucking bar and vice versa so I'm looking at a way to modify this so the action is more motorcycle like and not so on/off like they are now.
I did add a roller to mine and re routed the cable which made it way smoother but it don't address the other issues I mentioned above.
 

cannonball2

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Oct 28, 2010
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Its great to know you are on this too DZ. I read on wet clutch material last night and it is very hard to find. I did read an article where believe it or not wood made a good lining, elm was deemed the best though oak was good(I love oak) main requirement was that the grain be tight and oriented in the direction of loading. This article was fairly old so was probably for lower rpm engines, however I imagine they were able to lay on quite a bit of torque that the CG cant. Just might work and is easy enough to try.
I found neoprene bonded cork discs cheap. They are .250 thick which is about right, and can be cut with a razor knife around a form. Just don't think they may take the load with out shearing. There is plenty of thin neo/cork sheeting as thin as .016. This might work bonded to a medium like aluminum as you mention or even wood. Many of the Italian scooters used/use cork linings. My guess is common contact cement bonded under pressure will do. It has steadfastly held my sanding belt bonded rain roller for years.
 

Davezilla

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as long as teh oil can't mess up the bonding cement it should work... I got the cork idea from when I was changing out a clutch on a forklift about twenty so years ago. At the time I was surprised that cork was the material of choice for heavy equipment with oil bath clutches. For wood as a clutch lining material I'm thinking maybs look for a wood vaneer that's either elm or oak and at least 1/16" thick. I can see where wood would get really grippy when oil soaked as well as being durable and long lasting
 

cannonball2

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Oct 28, 2010
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I found a seller on ebay that sells various wood dimensionally cut to accurate thicknesses, and cheap too! I measured the CG pads they are .245" I can get 1/4 in wood and just run that, or I can get 1/8 and face it two sides with 1/16 neo/cork for the same thickness.

What you thoughts?
 

cannonball2

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Oct 28, 2010
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Got some 1/16 neoprene bonded cork for the friction material. As soon as the oak arrives the quest for a CG wet clutch will begin.

Think all slant heads are the same-not. The one that came with the FH engine is radically different than the one that came in the box o parts engine. The head on the left is the box o parts, the right the FH. I like the BOP head better. Has the classic domed chamber with just the plug angled while the other is flatter with a pocket around the plug. The FH head appears higher compression but only cc-ing would tell. The smaller ring on the FH head should seal better however. Im gonna run the BOP head. Thats not a squish band on the BOP head BTW. At least not a proper one.
There is a proper position for a slant head everybody know which way?
 

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cannonball2

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Oct 28, 2010
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Don't know if folks read the ring gaps. I had heard they were wide. Man are they! like .010! That's reject size for most engines. Had heard they were like this to keep power down. I wont mess with replacing them since performance is not what this engine is about. If I was building for speed I would be cruising Treatland right now for some 47x2mm non chrome moped rings now. If you speedsters aren't replacing rings you are throwing away valuable power!

I ordered a 10mm thin wall wrist pin from Treatland to lighten the top end a bit, not going to drill the piston on this one.
 

brown

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Feb 1, 2013
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Don't know if folks read the ring gaps. I had heard they were wide. Man are they! like .010! That's reject size for most engines. Had heard they were like this to keep power down. I wont mess with replacing them since performance is not what this engine is about. If I was building for speed I would be cruising Treatland right now for some 47x2mm non chrome moped rings now. If you speedsters aren't replacing rings you are throwing away valuable power!

I ordered a 10mm thin wall wrist pin from Treatland to lighten the top end a bit, not going to drill the piston on this one.
What was the part number of the wrist pin you ordered?
 

cannonball2

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Oct 28, 2010
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Treatland # 163300 for a Yamaha QT50/60. Its a 33mm long pin instead of the CGs 36mm. The float wont hurt a thing and it even lighter than a 36mm thin wall. I may have gotten the last one though. At least you know what to look for elsewhere.
 

cannonball2

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Oct 28, 2010
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Should have the engines bearings today and can begin to assemble the bottom end. The crank bearings are actually SKF bearings specified for large R/C engines, not just any available bearing. The trans bearings are more common SKF sealed bearings.

Was riding the bike with the Flying Horse engine yesterday, its broken in by now. Interesting situation. I drained the fuel that was a 32:1 mix using Stihl synthetic, and replaced it with the same ratio mixed with Klotz R50 full synthetic. I have run Klotz for years but it was the KL300 which has castor. I don't like castor but it was a good protectant before the modern oils. Good in a race engine that needs all it can get and gets torn down often. Castor leaves mighty deposits for a street engine.
Anyway the R50 is a very thick bodied oil compared to the common oils you normally find for 2stroke stuff.
What happened was the engine immediately made a noticeable bit more power. didn't rev much higher, but pulled like a freight train compared to before. Im only assuming the thicker body helped seal the mightily gapped poor quality Chinese rings.
Don't want to start an oil debut, just reporting what happened. I noticed also the Stihl mix spilled on the floor evaporated almost completely leaving very little oil present. I tried the Klotz mix and it basically left an oily mess, very similar to a mix with 30wt motor oil.
Not trying to sell anyone on Klotz, there are plenty of fine oils and we all have our preferences. This basically substantiates the argument that oil can increase power argued(myself included) in another thread.
I will be running Klotz even if it is $8.50/pt.
 

cannonball2

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Oct 28, 2010
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Heres a few pics of a prototype wet clutch puck. Its made from a common paint stir stick which is too soft and thick, but it gave an idea of how to make one. The ones that will be used will be the same thickness as the stock puck about .250" and will be cut from red oak with the cork bonded to them. There are 15 of them so I don't think the loading is too great for the materials. Shouldn't be too hard to cut from a stick as wide as the puck as they will share angled sides so cutting should go pretty fast. Cork will be bonded first.
Really have nothing to loose here. If it doesn't work out will just clean the oil from the gear case/clutch and install the dry pucks. If it works should greatly extend gear life, make things quieter and make for a smoother clutch.

Im sure there is the usual learning curve here.
 

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Davezilla

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Yup... definirtely on the right track with the wet clutch idea... As long as the pucks are strong enough but with 15 of them pushing almost evenly, the side loading should still be minimal, The one thing I saw on one of my clutches is that the inside plate is nice and smooth but the outside plate, the one the flower nut goes on some of them have a bit of texture added to them I guess for extra grip. I don't know if all outer plates are this way but if so you may want to lap it down to prevent eating away at the pucks on that side. With the oil bath, both plates can be very smooth and it should grip really well.
I remember the forkilfts I had to change the clutches on used ATF in the clutch housing, which might be a better choice than 10w30 since most ATF's have friction modifiers to help with clutch gripping power but still have the ability to lube and protect the metal parts.

The main test I would think is what type of cement will work best in the oil environment. I'm thinking something like the 3M super weatherstrip adhesive should work once dried and cured. Also a good urethane cement like gorilla glue would be able to stand up to the oil bath without breaking down. Urethane glues like this tend to foam up a little while curing so gluing them then pseeting some kind of weight on the parts to prevent this foam separation may be needed, something like a heavy book on top of a batch of pucks would be sufficient, too much pressure can squeeze out too much of the glue leaving the bond weak.

Keep going with it tho... you're on the right idea
 

cannonball2

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Oct 28, 2010
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I know the outer plate you are talking about. Mine is smooth. I may "surface" it with some 220 on the granite counter top(when the wife is at work). Gonna try the common Weldwood contact cement first, its a MEK/toluene base which should be ok with the oil. Urethane would be good also, I have some Gorilla glue. I may even run 1/4" oak pucks with no lining just to see if it works like the article I read said. If so it gets even easier to go wet.

I suppose I should cut a groove down the middle of the cork for oil squeeze out?
 
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