Got pulled over ......now what?

Where is the federal law? I thought we had it posted in here http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=386

I cant find it now?

This is all i can find at the moment

United States
[edit]Federal law
In the United States, federal law governing ICE motorized bicycles is subject to interpretative rulings by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) at the U.S. Department of Transportation. Under current NHTSA rules, a "motor-driven cycle" (a definition that includes a two-wheel vehicle such as a bicycle with an add-on ICE engine of five brake horsepower or less[23]) and a speed capability of more than 20 miles per hour lacks both a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) and standard onroad safety equipment such as mirrors, turn signal lamps, side marker lamps, and stop lamps, then the vehicle shall not be considered a "motor vehicle" as defined by DOT/NHTSA regulations, but instead is defined as an off-road vehicle (since the lack of a VIN and on-road equipment indicates that a vehicle was not manufactured primarily for use on public roads.)[23] Such off-road vehicles are considered to be neither motor vehicles nor motorcycles, as those terms are defined under federal law.[23] Under present-day NHTSA rules, the final decision as to whether such federally defined off-road vehicles may be legally operated on public roads is determined by the laws of the state in which the vehicle is being operated.

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biknut said:

The only federal law about motor bicycles is about ebikes.

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You might be right Biknut, this is what i found http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/FAQ Site/pages/page3.html#Anchor-59217

And i just got off the phone and you are correct i was wrong, Roland did change the state Law not just the city ordinance. My mistake

I think this deserves it own thread as this is huge news to anyone riding a
motorized bike in Arizona.

You AZ guys better get together fast or just about any motor you are using now
is going to be made illegal.

1.3 HP is what a Subaru or Honda 25 cc motor makes.

This is bad news for everyone and a very bad precedent if it passes.

Might be the best to keep the original law if possible.

Dave31 said:

I was there during the meetings, I remember Roland standing in front of the council reading them the federal law for motorized bicycles.

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I'm pretty sure all it's about is the definition of an ebike, and what's accepted for sale in the us. Sets maximum power at 250w. Maximum speed at 20 mph. That's why state laws always have the same limits.

An important part of the federal law is where you can ride one. This is the real biache to states that would rather not allow motor bicycles of any kind. The federal law states that if you use federal money in the construction of a bike/walking trail you must allow certain types of personal transportation devices. Among them is found ebikes, and also those little battery powered things old geezers ride around to the grocery store and stuff, and also those stupid Segways.

Here in Dallas in the downtown there's a section called the West End. It's the closest thing Dallas has to a tourist trap. There's a guy there that conducts tours of the city on Segways. He started taking tours on the Katy Trail which is a popular biking/walking trail near downtown. The city council passed an ordinance banning Segways to keep him off the trail, but the guy knows his chit. He went to city hall and informed them that federal law allows Segways to ride any trail built with federal money, and if they wouldn't change the law he was going to sue the city. The city council dumped that law as fast as they could after the city prosecutor told them he was in the right.

It's one of the few times I can think of where a federal law bit the right a$$.

MotorBicycleRacing said:

Might be the best to keep the original law if possible.

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I agree with you MBR, I'm really nervous but i also like the idea of being able to get around faster. I also feel its a little safer when you can keep up with traffic better.

But I am worried we just may shoot ourselves in the foot.

biknut said:

I'm pretty sure all it's about is the definition of an ebike, and what's accepted for sale in the us. Sets maximum power at 250w. Maximum speed at 20 mph. That's why state laws always have the same limits.

An important part of the federal law is where you can ride one. This is the real biache to states that would rather not allow motor bicycles of any kind. The federal law states that if you use federal money in the construction of a bike/walking trail you must allow certain types of personal transportation devices. Among them is found ebikes, and also those little battery powered things old geezers ride around to the grocery store and stuff, and also those stupid Segways.

Here in Dallas in the downtown there's a section called the West End. It's the closest thing Dallas has to a tourist trap. There's a guy there that conducts tours of the city on Segways. He started taking tours on the Katy Trail which is a popular biking/walking trail near downtown. The city council passed an ordinance banning Segways to keep him off the trail, but the guy knows his chit. He went to city hall and informed them that federal law allows Segways to ride any trail built with federal money, and if they wouldn't change the law he was going to sue the city. The city council dumped that law as fast as they could after the city prosecutor told them he was in the right.

It's one of the few times I can think of where a federal law bit the right a$$.

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You are correct Biknut spoke to Roland and he set me straight. He changed the state law first then fought city council to adopt it. I guess what i remembered was not correct.

Dave31 said:

I agree with you MBR, I'm really nervous but i also like the idea of being able to get around faster. I also feel its a little safer when you can keep up with traffic better.

But I am worried we just may shoot ourselves in the foot.

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It should be < 50 cc, 2 Hp, 30 mph as a lot of States are.

Dave did you know how KC's attempts to change the laws were going?

I am shocked and dismayed by reading his previous post as he is not a
good representative for the AZ motor bicycling community.......

Yes, i do know what KC is up too. He told me a while back when i first met him at Death Race.

I'm supporting it, but I still not sure if its a good idea. Like i said we might just shoot ourselves in the foot.

The treatment of gas powered motor bicycles is really messed up in America. Some states are on the ball, and some are very behind the times.

Just look at the situation of the op of this thread. He's being harassed off the street even though Florida had almost exactly to same laws about motor bicycles as Texas. In both states there's no specific mention of gas powered motor bicycles in any of the state statutes. In Florida law enforcement has decided that means you can't ride one. In Texas they've taken the exact opposite stance, and decided they're just bicycles since they're not mentioned.



As long as it stays that way, I wouldn't really want to rock the boat and try getting any law passed, and take a chance of getting us banned altogether. OTOH if would be better for business if there was a clearly defined law so if you did want to start up a motor bicycle business you'd know where you stand legally.

biknut said:

OTOH if would be better for business if there was a clearly defined law so if you did want to start up a motor bicycle business you'd know where you stand legally.

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A friend wants me to build him bikes that he will sell to college kids. I don't have enough experience to accept, but he already had calls in to his insurance and lawyer. When I hear, I'll pass it on.

Trey said:

A friend wants me to build him bikes that he will sell to college kids. I don't have enough experience to accept, but he already had calls in to his insurance and lawyer. When I hear, I'll pass it on.

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I'll tell you right now it's a pretty safe bet no insurance company will want to touch a motor bicycle.

MotorBicycleRacing said:

I think this deserves it own thread as this is huge news to anyone riding a
motorized bike in Arizona.

You AZ guys better get together fast or just about any motor you are using now
is going to be made illegal.

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I already made a thread about it here a long time ago.
http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=35310

I also have had a petition and my own site topic about a change
for over 2 years here...
Read it here http://kcsbikes.com/AZRS28-2516.htm#statute
281 people have signed it, 235 of them in AZ.

I too also know of Roland of SpookyTooth's efforts back in 2006 that changed STATE law, it was his Tucson State House Rep that got his foot in the door and championed it and I know full well what it takes after 2 years of research and my foot is at least in the door now but I have no rep backing me (yet).

It has been suggested I may have been harsh concerning FL law and not be the best voice for AZ law but I beg to differ, not only is motorized bicycle safety my first and most important priority, I addressed it. I have been the ONLY voice for a couple of years now and as I put in my e-mail to all 6 members of the AZ House Transportation Committees e-mails, I tell how I know the real fact from actually having built and rode in traffic everything I address which is pretty much everything. I have also made a point of NOT addressing things like power enhancements like X-chamber exhaust or gears which nobody wants to see regulated anyway.

If I am not fit to be the voice for AZ motorized bicycle riders who the heck is?
Really, please tell me as my entire livelihood and that of thousands others that rely on motorized bicycles hangs in the balance.

Having lived in the Phoenix area since I was ~8 (~45 years) this state is infamous for snubbing Fed law and giving people more freedoms from guns to open containers driving and so many other things it makes your head spin and in this case that is a real plus.

As for HB2177 as written being signed into law by Governor Jan Brewer if it actually makes it to a bill passed by both the House and Senate no need for worry, she (Brewer) is all for relaxing all Fed based rules and advance notice of the **** storm of screwing thousands of people out of their current transportation if she signs it beforehand will make that a moot point, I can almost guarantee that.

Have you ever seen a hurdling race in person?
It is a running track race against time with many things you have to jump (hurdle) over to finish. Changing law is the same way. It has a time limit and a lot of hurdles you have to jump over and I have managed to get over the first 4 or 5 just to even compete but there are a lot more ahead.

But hey, if any of you AZ guys think you can do better please step up and take over as it is a mind numbingly hard job. I don't give a crap about credit, and I would be happy to stop my personal quest and let someone else continue on where I leave off and repair any perceived damage I may have already caused if you are sure you can do better.

Then again you can just join in on my effort and voice your support for my proposals or voice your own idea's to your State district reps and all the transportation committee members directly yourself too.
If you even care at all don't you think it is worth your own time to draft a simple e-mail?

One last time I will offend some of you and maybe sound harsh but if you want government law changed get off your butt and help or shut the heck up and be a sheep expecting someone else to do it alone while criticizing those that try for their time consuming gallant efforts for even trying.

Yes it's late, I'm tired, alcohol buzzed and pissed but the point remains the same.

biknut- It will be interesting to hear what they have to say.

KCvale- You'll get no argument from me my friend.

Dave31 said:

The efforts that Roland put in was to unbann motorized bicycle in the city of Tucson. had nothing to do with the state of Arizona. There already is a federal law that allows motorized bicycles. All we did was get the city of Tucson to adopt the federal law.

Even if KC bill passes, we in Tucson will still have a 20mph speed limit because thats our city ordinance.

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Dave
The only federal law pertaining to power assisted bicycles is one that cover eBikes, 750 watts and 20mph.

15 U.S.C. § 2085 : US Code - Section 2085

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title15/html/USCODE-2010-title15-chap47-sec2085.htm

happyvalley said:

Dave
The only federal law pertaining to power assisted bicycles is one that cover eBikes, 750 watts and 20mph.

15 U.S.C. § 2085 : US Code - Section 2085

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2010-title15/html/USCODE-2010-title15-chap47-sec2085.htm

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Yes, I realize now I made an error

I grew up in Florida. I was 7yrs old in 1970 and we rode all kinds of different motorbikes, minibikes, small motorcycles, anything with an engine on it until I moved away at age 12 in 76. We went dirt biking in the sandlots all the time. We rode them all over the neighborhood, on the street, and even to the store and no cop ever gave us the time of day except to say "nice bike." It's sad that the government has turned into a big game of getting every cent they can get their hands on from it's citizens. They will ban things just to collect fines and simply just gouge money from citizens for the smallest of things. I live in CA now and about 3 weeks ago I got pulled over and received my first traffic ticket in over a decade. It was for speeding, I was going about 70mph in a 55mph zone in my car. The cop wrote me up for going 82mph, and the fine that came in the mail was $500. I plan on taking up as much of the court's time as possible and demanding a trial.

For those that are interested in Federal law related to motor driven cycles (motorized bikes), I found this on Wikipedia:

United States Federal law
In the United States, federal law governing ICE motorized bicycles is subject to interpretative rulings by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) at the U.S. Department of Transportation. Under current NHTSA rules, a "motor-driven cycle" (a definition that includes a two-wheel vehicle such as a bicycle with an add-on ICE engine of five brake horsepower or less[23]) and a speed capability of more than 20 miles per hour lacks both a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) and standard onroad safety equipment such as mirrors, turn signal lamps, side marker lamps, and stop lamps, then the vehicle shall not be considered a "motor vehicle" as defined by DOT/NHTSA regulations, but instead is defined as an off-road vehicle (since the lack of a VIN and on-road equipment indicates that a vehicle was not manufactured primarily for use on public roads.)[23] Such off-road vehicles are considered to be neither motor vehicles nor motorcycles, as those terms are defined under federal law.[23] Under present-day NHTSA rules, the final decision as to whether such federally defined off-road vehicles may be legally operated on public roads is determined by the laws of the state in which the vehicle is being operated.

State and local laws
The legal status of an ICE motorized bicycle in the United States is presently determined by the laws of each state and/or local jurisdiction. Several states allow ICE motorbikes to be operated on roadways without registration, tax, or licensing in the same manner as bicycles, providing certain restrictions are observed.[24] Many state jurisdictions use limits on top speed and/or engine displacement to determine if ICE motorized bicycles require registration and licensing - sometimes as mopeds, sometimes as motorcycles.[25] Some states prohibit the use of motorbikes on multi-use recreational paths or high-speed, limited access roadways, while others require additional safety equipment for operation on public roads, such as wearing a helmet.[26] Many U.S. cities and other local jurisdictions may impose additional restrictions upon ICE motorized bicycles when operated on public streets and roadways.

Chris
AKA: BigBlue

Just go to court and demand a jury trial. What jury would convict?
Prosecutor "So you admit you were riding in the street?"
Defendant "Yes. Riding a bicycle"
Judge "Case dismissed"

maniac57 said:

Just go to court and demand a jury trial. What jury would convict?
Prosecutor "So you admit you were riding in the street?"
Defendant "Yes. Riding a bicycle"
Judge "Case dismissed"

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Yes, this.