The best condidate for a motor bicycle build

GoldenMotor.com

Dan

Staff
May 25, 2008
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Moosylvania
I too love this. Careful analysis and consideration. It really is my favorite part of MBing.

Thanks for taking the time to post pics BoxCar.

I will post pics of the welds on the PB and moondawg tomorrow or next day. They are beautiful and on cheap bikes. One is steel and the other aluminum. So a good cross section.
 

silverbear

The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Jul 9, 2009
8,325
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northeastern Minnesota
This has been an interesting early morning read. I had thought initially it would be a simple rehash of the old Huffy vs vintage debate, but due to the thoughtfulness of our fine members it has been an informed discussion. I especially appreciate the detailed photos and commentary regarding welds, quality of metals in frame construction and discussion of wheel sets.

We come to this table with different skills, experiences, preferences, expectations, budgets, and needs. Some of us are young and in a hurry. Some are old with a lot of time on our hands. Some of us need transportation and we need it soon. The motorbike is going to get us back and forth to work and we need to have it running yesterday. For others a bike build is a winter project to be enjoyed and savored. And for some of us the projects get dragged out into years, with multiple projects going on at the same time. As was said back in the sixties, "different strokes for different folks".

I see now that I have over 7,000 posts on this forum. Good grief, get a life, mister! One might imagine that such a person must know an awful lot and be an "expert". Nope, not an expert, but I am experienced and an old guy. So, what follows are just my opinions and preferences and should not be taken any more seriously than anyone else's, especially people with real expertise in welding, engineering, mechanics, etc. I claim none of the above and bow to others here for what they know. I ask for more advice than what I give.

Like many of you I like to tinker with motored bikes and like many of you I don't have deep pockets. I tend to use what I have, look for true value in what I purchase and try to stretch my dollars. At the same time I appreciate quality and want to build fun, safe rides.
In my view it makes little sense to buy two sets of things, one which I will actually use and the other will get shifted from one spot to another and eventually end up at the metal pile of the landfill. If I know I'm going to replace wheels, fork, brakes and such why not just get one set? I admit that I have never bought a new bike. I came close once when the Schwinn Jaguar was still being sold at K-mart I think it was... a pretty good deal for the money.

I like vintage frames. In running through an inventory of current builds plus my daily rider there is a 50 Schwinn straightbar (found at the dump) 51 Schwinn cantilever (given to me as junk), a 63 Schwinn American Deluxe step through purchased on ebay, a 1934 Elgin 4 star step through purchased on ebay and a Worksman frame from around 2,000 with a 1960's girls bike front down tube welded in to the Worksman frame. So the Worksman is not vintage, but I consider it of vintage quality. Good, solid frames all. The frame is the backbone, the foundation, the beginning point of any build. After that everything else is add on. Every one of these frames has a moped/light motorcycle triple tree suspension fork. One is new Suzuki and the rest are salvaged, good quality forks. Front wheels are all built from moped drum brake hubs, 11 or 12 gauge spokes on vintage rims, usually Schwinn and salvaged. Fatty tires of good quality finish them out. The wheelset is the other part of the foundation. For not much money I have the rolling chassis I feel good about having under me, the best I can do on my budget and with my skills (which are not awesome). Rear brakes are either drum or refurbished Bendix coaster brakes... good quality components. From there each build is different with vintage motors both 2 stroke and 4 stroke, one build being a hybrid incorporating an electric wheel. Each build is quite different from the other.

And all of them are slow builds, not intentionally, but that's how they turn out. The Indian Hiawatha tri car is running on four years now. Or is it five? Coming on four years for the Elgin. Correction on the front forks; not all use triple tree forks since the tri-car suspension front end was hand made by Fasteddy.

I don't mean to be advocating much anything for anyone else. Just kind of stating where things have come to for me. What groove I've settled in to, you might say. My bikes are very much a hobby bordering on obsession and are a kind of personal expression of creative energy of sometimes artistic merit, I like to imagine anyway... that's the intention. I'm glad there is so much elbow room within this forum for different approaches to things which lead sometimes to surprising results.

Carry on. To each his (or her) own and whatever you ride stay safe. Coffee cup is empty & so am I.
SB
 
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boxcar

New Member
Dec 18, 2014
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Astoria OR
Love me some straight bars.....
Thanks for the well thought out and informative response Silver Bear.
Your stable is one to be envied.
Have a great day......
 

biknut

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2010
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Dallas
Pretty welds are nice to look at, but usually on motor bicycles the frame breaks on the down tube, or seat post near the motor mounts. Not at the welds.
 

silverbear

The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Jul 9, 2009
8,325
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northeastern Minnesota
Pretty welds are nice to look at, but usually on motor bicycles the frame breaks on the down tube, or seat post near the motor mounts. Not at the welds.
That may be so, but to my eye sloppy or partial welds are an indication of the frame's integrity of construction and quality of materials. If corners are cut at such visible places then it seems likely that the same is true for what is not visible. It says of the manufacturer, "We don't care". Maybe the frame is adequate for what we're doing (and maybe not), but since we're pushing things beyond what these frames were designed for as pedal bikes in the first place I feel better knowing they were made well and made to last. I like it when I read on an old Schwinn decal "Made in Chicago, USA". Those days of Made In America may be gone, but many of the old bikes are still around and in my opinion (generally speaking) make great candidates for becoming a motor bike.
SB
 

boxcar

New Member
Dec 18, 2014
358
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Astoria OR
The point isn't that they are pretty welds.
Pretty welds break just as easily as ugly ones.
The point is that they are properly executed welds, lay'd down by some one who cares about his or her work / quality and your safety ..... Good penetration without under cut.
They start and stop at the same location. (100% welds)
All signs of a manufacturer who cares about his or her reputation and the quality of the product , not just the #'s.
You also missed the part about taper'd steel vs straight tubing.
A huge strength difference.
IE: the broken tubes and seat posts.
I think I have demonstrated that quality can be as inexpensive as junk.
You may have to work a bit harder to find it , but heck. I'd rather dig through a scrap pile for buried treasure than walk into Wally World any way.
 

KCvale

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2010
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Phoenix,AZ
Aluminum frames tend to have larger welds than Steel frames but it is comforting to use a frame that at least looks and feels like is was made right.

The $350 Fito has a supersizing level of quality for everything that matters.

Big tubes including oversize seat post (1.25") and decent welds.









Inappropriate for a direct drive with the disc brakes and 3" tires but it makes for a pretty spiffy 2-stroke shifter.



You can build with 'old, slow and cheap' or 'new, fast, and not so cheap', everything else is the huge middle ground that makes MB's so fun ;-}
 

Scott.D.Lang

Member
Jan 1, 2013
406
2
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Chicago
just looking at the pictures of the welds on the huffy frame and they are some bad looking ones. the problem with the welds though are not that a robot did them but that the person setting up the robot most likely is not a welder and in truth could care less about a good or bad weld.

then even worse is QC is not doing there job.

the big shame of the whole thing is if the person that sets up the robot does things right it only takes a couple minuets longer and he/she will have to do less to the robot on there shift. I know this to be true because I worked at DeVilbiss Air Power and not a single weld ( cept for legs and bases ) on there air tanks are done by hand. when the robots are set up right it is very hard to tell the difference between a hand weld and a robot's most of the time the only way you will see the difference is where there was a repair done after hydro testing and most of the time the robot's weld will look better ( if set up right ).

So all that said I myself would have no problem with a frame that was welded by a robot if the people in the factory do there jobs from begging to end.
 

boxcar

New Member
Dec 18, 2014
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Astoria OR
You are correct.
The robot was not at fault for the welds on the Huffy in question.
The operator and maintenance man or woman was.

In a perfect world that bike frame would have been rejected by the QC guy that one would expect to be on the down hill side of the welder.
That just doesn't seem to happen in the bicycle world .

I don't want to seem byest against any one manufacturer .

I had some spare time the other day , so I stop'd by a chain store to look at bikes.
The range of bikes was from $80 - $350 Huffy's and Schwinn's were everywhere.
I discover'd that weld quality was all over the place.
Price had nothing to do with it.
The Cranbrook is a good example .
I look'd at 4 bikes. The first look'd nice , clean welds . If it had been anything but a coaster brake bike , I'd have bought it.
The other three went down in quality. 2 were as bad as the bike I used in my comparison.
The Schwinn's , Mongoose and Genesis fair'd no better. Seem'd like no QC.

I guess if one is going to use a low buck bike, one should not just buy the first bike on the line.
Inspect what you buy.
If it is box'd, Open the box and inspect before you leave the store.....

I stand by my first statement.....
The best bike for a conversion to gas or electric is a bare frame of sufficient quality to do the job.
Be it aluminum or steel.
Then add good quality components.
Notice the word " NEW " never came in to this conversation.
You don't have to break the bank to build a great , strong , safe motorized bike.
You just have to be good at finding that diamond in the ruff .
 
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silverbear

The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Jul 9, 2009
8,325
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northeastern Minnesota
Interesting.
Quality control seems to be the central issue, beyond the manufacturer's choice of materials or construction design,whether welded by hand or machine and having essentially nothing to do with country of origin. Quality control. It makes me think of the old Schwinn of Chicago's legendary pride of being made in America, in Chicago Illinois... as being synonymous with "quality". Aside from being a little sad about our fall from grace about "made in America" meaning well made in America, this post suggests to me that each of us needs to be the guy at the end of the assembly line who inspects the item for quality.

I recall my friend Tinsmith's experience with his brand new Worksman cruiser frame. Being who he is as a meticulous craftsman, Dan sensed there was something off about the frame... which he was not expecting since Worksman was supposed to be the standard of excellence for us motorbike builders. The rear triangle was off, not true. I also recall reading from Sportscar Pat that he had to change the dimension on his in frame tank because of variations in the frames he was getting from Worksman. If I remember correctly I also recall his saying that the old Schwinn straightbar frames were remarkably consistent... each one the same and each one excellent.

In my own limited dealings with Worksman I got the sense that their customer relations could stand some "quality control" having asked repeatedly if there was a serial number database I could refer to in order to determine date or at least year of manufacture. Never got a response and finally gave up. And I was a paying customer for a number of wheels and other parts. They must have a database. Why not share it with the bike "fans". I don't know and have to assume that whoever I was dealing with did not care.

I'm not bashing Worksman and still feel they make a great bike. The point is that we should not assume there is a consistent attitude of excellence in the making of a bike. We should check it ourselves before we buy it. And if it is an old bike frame we should of course check it over, too. I'll bet that even in it's Chicago heyday some guys on the assembly line at Schwinn got fired for not caring enough about quality. And especially in these days of low wages, foreign competition, robotics we should pay attention as the final inspector.

Thanks for the heads up, Boxcar. Something to think about. It reminds me of my mother's admonition to "never assume as there is always an ass in ass ume". Ha!
SB
 

boxcar

New Member
Dec 18, 2014
358
4
0
Astoria OR
Got a call from the kid at the scrap yard today.
$7 Bought a very very nice 1996 Trek Singletrack 930 with a Rock shock front end.
Bike needed a front tube, cleaned and a lube job......
I won't be motoring this one, wife called dibs for a new peddler......
The price on scrap steel is way way down..... Just a hint....

Before:



After:





 
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boxcar

New Member
Dec 18, 2014
358
4
0
Astoria OR
After reading a post by LDS I thought of this discussion, and it's relevance to his most recent discovery.
I am bumping it for that reason..... Hope you all understand.....
 

JerryAssburger

Active Member
Mar 11, 2017
208
124
43
Salem Oregon
I humbly submit the Hyper Beach Cruiser from Wally for $99.
So far the pros are: Low Price. Available by order only (so YOU are the one putting it together from the box), the geometry requires almost NO fabrication, it can be ordered in basic black (easier to match and paint over mistakes that us Newbies make). The lower bar (where the tensioner bolts up) is oval in cross-section, forcing the tensioner to sit parallel to the wheel. I kinda like the look of the bike, too... but that's bias sneaking in.
The cons: Aluminum frame. I haven't run into any problems with it as far as putting the bike together, but many have voiced their opinions on the aluminum frames. I'm pretty sure the spokes are NOT the 12 gauge. No front handbrake, but the hole is there and I've got one on order.
So far the only "hacking" I've had to do has been the rear fender, to clear the chain.
I'm posting pix of the build to my Introduce Yourself thread.
 
Nov 27, 2013
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earth
www.Frankenbikes.com
I love this hobby, pushing the bike far beyond its original intent.

I have used good stuff and complete $#!t , new components, thrift store components, and actual trash.

the bottom line is when parts are pushed, weaknesses emerge and stuff breaks.

I think assembly skill trumps parts price, but stuff just fails.

you will become a (better) mechanic, because you will get a lot of practice. it does take time though

stuff needs to be greased and have attention paid to it.

bearings in particular want to be tightened to the "right" torque

learn to notice

custom projects have custom challenges.

I enjoy working on my projects as much as riding them - which is fortunate

el
 

biknut

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2010
6,631
409
83
Dallas
The search is over, I found the best candidate for a motor bicycle build.

The Perfect Storm

 

KCvale

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2010
3,966
57
48
Phoenix,AZ
The search is over, I found the best candidate for a motor bicycle build.

The Perfect Storm

Pffttt...
That weak ass direct drive hub and it's weak battery are far from 'the ultimate' bud, especially spinning those big wheels.
I know you like it and that's cool, but you might want to refrain from using 'ultimate' describing it...

I find you need a battery the size of that whole cavity pushing ~1KW with gears that actually work with enough power to move you with that...



Heck, I'll bet this 50V 12Ah ~600W shifting 3-speed 24" girls bike I am just wrapping up would kick that Strom up and down the beach... up and down any hills... and in any drag race...





Electric's have their place for a given need, in this case it was 'motorizing' a really small bike a really small woman with a 'go fast' attitude could actually comfortably ride because it was simply the 'best way' for her needs.

That is something all of you 'business builders' should keep in mind, it's not whats best for you when you build for others, it's what's best for them...

Or, I could just be busting your chops ;-}
 
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