Rear axle, derailer and dropouts

GoldenMotor.com

Dooly

New Member
Nov 16, 2014
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Arlington Tennessee
My derailer prevents the axle from being able to seat all the way to the rear of the dropouts. This pic shows the axle installed with the derailer REMOVED. You can see the mark from the washer where the axle is when the derailer is installed. All the way forward. Is this normal?

1993 Schwinn frame.
 

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Dooly

New Member
Nov 16, 2014
49
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Arlington Tennessee
For some reason I can only upload 1 pic at a time. Maybe file is to big. This pic shows the back of the bracket of the Shimano derailer, the side that goes against the frame. You can see it has a rounded nut that fits into the dropout and takes up quite a bit of room, moving the axle forward. This is the only one I have experience with. Are they all like this ? Any comments or suggestions welcome!
 

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chained

New Member
Nov 9, 2014
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United States
you can upload one at a time, but you dont have to close the attachment window each time.
upload, then you will see it was successful. then just hit Choose File again, and upload a new image. you can d this a few times to put multiple images in your post.
 

Dooly

New Member
Nov 16, 2014
49
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Arlington Tennessee
Probably user error. I had tried what you said, seem to work fine, but when I clicked on "close this window" it would not close and return to post. I know I have done it before successfully . Thanks
 

bluegoatwoods

Active Member
Jul 29, 2012
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Central Illinois
Yes. What you have there is normal.

Now there are bikes where the de-railer is hung from it's own hanger just below the axle. But you can't have that without buying another bicycle.

What you have there is very typical. And, yes, it's a drawback when you're trying to adjust your motor drive train.

But with practice you ought to be able to find the 'sweet spot'.
 

Dooly

New Member
Nov 16, 2014
49
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Arlington Tennessee
BGW thanks for the quick response. It's good to know this is as it should be. Actually I was not trying to adjust drive chain. I have a shift kit. I was concerned about it being so far forward that it might be weak or at least not as strong as if it were fully seated. I have had my share of road rash in my twenties and I don't bounce or heal as well as I did then.

I could see it being fine for pedaling around 15 mph but with a motor 30+mph have you ever known one to fail. Or should I quit worrying about it.
Thanks ....Dooly
 

bluegoatwoods

Active Member
Jul 29, 2012
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Central Illinois
Okay. I think I understand what you're concerned about now.

Is it that the axle sits so close to the opening of the dropout?

I can see how that would be worrying.

But it shouldn't be any trouble as long as you've got that axle fastened down tight.

The same thing goes, of course, for every part of your bike. You don't want anything coming apart at 30 or more mph.

I'm sorry to be a drag. But I'd advise you not to go that fast. That bike just wasn't meant for that. You'll be taking a fearful risk.
 

maniac57

Old, Fat, and still faster than you
Oct 8, 2011
4,484
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memphis Tn
If it bothers you, simply remove the sliding nut and use the axle to clamp the derailleur.
The nut is mostly there to make it easier to remove the wheel.
It is NOT needed for proper function.
 

Dooly

New Member
Nov 16, 2014
49
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Arlington Tennessee
You understand exactly! I'm constantly checking bolts and screws so no worry there.

You have hit on something I was concerned about when I first thought of building this. Was a bike meant to go this fast? I did a lot of research and apparently a lot of people are putting motors on bikes and the average speed with direct drive seems to be 30-35. I am still in the break in period but I did get it to 29 mph in fourth gear very briefly and it has six gears. So I'm sure it will go faster.

A word to the wise FROM the wise is never being a drag. Are you referring to all bicycles or my bike imparticularly ? My biggest concern assuming the frame is strong enough is the wheels. Bearings , rims, tires.

Your opinion is most appreciated !
 

Dooly

New Member
Nov 16, 2014
49
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Arlington Tennessee
Thanks Maniac! I am out here tinkering with it right now and I was wondering that very same thing. I think I will try that. It actually would make me feel better if the axle was all the way back in the dropouts.
 

bluegoatwoods

Active Member
Jul 29, 2012
1,581
6
38
Central Illinois
You know.........

I consider myself to be a guy who knows something about bicycles. And not without reason; I've got a lot of experience.

Yet Maniac57s suggestion about removing that hold-down bolt is something that has never occurred to me.

IT'S BRILLIANT!!!

My dropouts are gonna have a lot more wiggle room in the future. I'm feeling a bit giddy just thinking about it.

Thanks, Maniac.

And Dooly, I'll be glad to give you some of my notions (just one man's opinion) on safe speeds, riding styles, and so on. But I can't do it now. Gotta get to sleep so that I can go to work. But I'll stop back in on this thread when I get the chance.

Good night!
 

maniac57

Old, Fat, and still faster than you
Oct 8, 2011
4,484
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memphis Tn
One advantage I have is learning bicycles LONG before I ever motorized one. Makes it easier to keep the bike in good repair when you know every part in your sleep.
Simple things like this and knowing parts don't care what bike they are on...keeping things well greased and adjusted.
It's not rocket science people...it's just bicycles going fast.
A safe pedaling bike is usually a safe motorized bike.
Brakes, bearing adjustments, keeping things tight. It's not so hard.
 

bluegoatwoods

Active Member
Jul 29, 2012
1,581
6
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Central Illinois
Okay....another work week over with. Tomorrow I'll work some more on my new bike. But tonight I can drool over some of the bikes I see in this forum and even write a bit.

Concerning speeds, I strongly recommend not going anywhere near 30 mph. Most bicycles were not engineered for the shocks and stresses that they'll experience at such speeds. This doesn't mean that going 30 means a definite, instant death. But the margin of error is too small and the odds are getting short enough that there's a measurable chance of them catching up to you in fairly short order. People could bet money against you and be reasonably certain of getting a payoff.

Imagine yourself on a plain old pedal bicycle. You've got smooth pavement and a light tailwind. Not enough that the wind is doing most of the work for you. But just enough that you can keep up a nice pace without wearing yourself out. Enough that you find yourself thinking, "Hmm....I'm doing pretty good here. If bicycling was always this easy, I'd be doing it all the time".

We're talking 13 to 15 mph here. That's about how fast I ride a china girl. 95% of the time, anyway. I'm willing to goose it in a few special circumstances. But never for very long. When the road opens up for me again, then I slow it down again.

That might not sound very fast. But it's faster than you might think because you can do it all the time. Headwinds and uphills make no difference. And that's huge.

I'll use my own work commute as an example. It's about 6 miles door to door. Leaving home for work I climb a fair amount and then I go downhill a good amount. Work is at a lower elevation than home.

On a regular pedal bike, if the wind is not against me, I make the trip to work in about 35 minutes. On the way home it's about 45 minutes. But that's if the wind is not against me. But the direction is more or less southwest and 3 nights out of 4 the wind is definitely against me. So my realistic home time is closer to 1 hour.

On a motored bike my time in each direction is about 30 mins. That motor equalizes the uphills and the headwinds for me. And it does more than that. I manage this with less effort and sweat than I do on a pedal bike. We all know this already, of course. But it means that what we might call me 'effective speed', taking effort into account, at 15 mph on a motored bike is more than double my 'effective speed' on a pedal bike.

To put it more succinctly: if you think of your machine as an ultra-capable bicycle, then you'll do well and you will be pleased with your arrival times at your various destinations. If you think of your machine as a light and inexpensive motorcycle, then you'll have somewhat better arrival times. But it'll be at the cost of a much greater exposure to the possibility of death or maiming. And your arrival times might not even be all that much better simply because of 'friction' with other vehicles (cars) on the roads.

I consider 20 mph to be going too fast. No one has to go slower than that simply because I say so. But I'd beg anyone considering the subject (particularly newbies) to think about it. We don't want to lose you.
 

Dooly

New Member
Nov 16, 2014
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Arlington Tennessee
I think the way you describe a MB and it's intended purpose is probably very accurate. I'm sure there are touring and racing bicycles designed to go 30+ but I'm sure mine is not designed for that. Or any $200 or $300 bike that the average person owns. I guess that is why I am so concerned with wheels, brakes and bearings. Not so much so I can tear around at 30-35 all the time but for the added peace of mind and security. My transportation at 16yrs old was my Honda 350 and other motorcycles as an adult. They are inherently very dangerous for all of the obvious reasons. And no matter how careful you are you can still be hurt through the actions of other motorists. I think the same thing can be said of bicycles and especially motorized bikes. We also need to keep in mind it is a bicycle with a motor not a motorcycle. Although it does somewhat replicate the origins of the motorcycle.

My commute to work is 26 miles each way on heavily conjested interstate or highway so I would not attempt that. I mainly built it as a hobby. I just like to ride it around the neighborhood.

As I said I remember the dangers from riding a motorcycle and I appreciate your viewpoint. It never hurts to be reminded not to go crazy on these things.
 

bluegoatwoods

Active Member
Jul 29, 2012
1,581
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38
Central Illinois
And you are correct, as a matter of fact, to be concerned about wheels. It's always seemed to me that basic bicycle wheels are the weak link on a motorized bicycle.

For that matter, stock V-brakes or caliper brakes are just a bit weak for a motorized bicycle as well.

Not that it can't be done. Don't let me sound too gloomy.

You can do just fine with stock wheels and brakes. Just keep a cautious eye on them and you should be okay.
 

a_dam

New Member
Feb 21, 2009
351
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Momence, IL
Hi, Dooly.

You're not the only one to wonder about Schwinn's dropouts. They've been like that from the 60's to the 90's at least; probably much earlier and later.
They've been making bikes for 120 years, but I still can't understand why the axle sits so shallow in the dropout. Is there a good reason?

I also modified some of mine to sit deeper. Glad I'm not the only one!

I would venture to say that they are safe as-is at any speed. You (maybe you, not me!) can ride 40mph without a motor, and not worry about an old Schwinn falling apart under you. After many thousands of motorized miles, I trust the Schwinn's frame design, even though it seems like an error to me.
 

Dooly

New Member
Nov 16, 2014
49
2
0
Arlington Tennessee
Man I always thought those Schwinn frames are so cool and strong. I had four of the Chicago Schwinn frames but I've had to downsize some and now I only have a 1968 Racer. But it is not the cruiser cantilever frame,more of a diamond frame with sturmey archer 3 speed hub. The one I motorized is 1993 cruiser. It was made in Hungary. It's the original design and seems to be well made. I got it brand new as an insurance claim when I lost my Raliegh Grand Pre in a fire. When I went to the bike shop to get it they had some made in China and some made in Hungary. I didn't know which was better but I didn't want one made in China. Now I put a Chinese motor on it Ha Ha !

As to the dropouts, I did what Maniac suggested and seems to work fine. Axle sits all the way back. I don't know if I would consider my dropouts to be shallow the derailer was just keeping it from going back. I'll have to look at my 1968 and see how it looks.