Age old Debate

GoldenMotor.com

2door

Moderator
Staff member
Sep 15, 2008
16,302
175
63
Littleton, Colorado
I'm certainly not worried. I'll ride my 2 strokes until the black helicopters come and haul me away. They MIGHT stop the importation of 2 cycle engines but it won't keep me from enjoying my bikes now. So, why worry about it? You're not going to change it.

Tom
 

david jeffries

New Member
May 11, 2012
38
0
0
pennsylvania
thats why i said the amount of pollution coming from our little engines, even the ones that are larger cc than allowed by state law, is about equal to a squirrel fart. even a hocker like the 212 predator doesnt produce as much emissions as a car.
 

Greg58

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2011
5,353
2,575
113
65
Newnan,Georgia
What bothers me with emissions regulations is the inconsistencies. Here in the metro Atlanta area our autos have to pass a test each year to renew the registration, but if it's a 3/4 ton or larger vehicle it is exempt. There is no way for me to believe that my little v6 van does more harm than a semi.
 
Last edited:

Bikeguy Joe

Godfather of Motorized Bicycles
Jan 8, 2008
11,837
252
63
up north now
Fo'Sho'!

The EPA does nothing about a locomotive that drips more oil in ten minutes than I will ever run through a motorized bike in a year. ;)
 

biknut

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2010
6,631
409
83
Dallas
When I'm looking for a new mb kit, meeting EPA rules isn't even a consideration for me. As a matter of fact I would abolish the whole department in a heartbeat. At the very least I would exclude any combustion motor less than 100cc from any regulations. Then I would ban Scotto's bike for being ugly. j/k
 

Cavi Mike

New Member
Dec 17, 2011
189
0
0
Rochester, NY
Why is this even a matter of discussion? Does any tree-hugger here really think any of these little engines puts out more pollution than an SUV? But those SUV's and every other car on our roads are EPA "certified."

Don't make me laugh.
 

Dan

Staff
May 25, 2008
12,765
115
48
59
Moosylvania
I am trying to shed some light on an age old debate on the logistics of EPA approved engines, namely 2 stroke engines.
We all know that most any 4 stroke engine is EPA approved, but most 2 stroke engines are not. This has given way to a surge of illegal importation primarily throughout the west coast. These rogue 2 stroke kits are in the US illegally. They have the potential of being confiscated if the EPA/customs catches the importer and gets hold of sales records in order to recover the illegal goods. These illegal kits are usually sold at a cheaper price because the factory does not have to pay for the EPA application/inspection and the more expensive catalytic muffler that is required.

There are basically 3 requirements that need to be met in order to import EPA approved (legal) 2 stroke engines:

1) The factory must have and EPA Certificate of Conformity and have an emission control label (in English) displayed on the engine along with a unique serial number.
2) The engines must include the EPA approved catalytic muffler.
3) The engine kit must be sold for off highway use.

Once these 3 conditions are met any US importer can import from the factory as long as the factory does not have exclusive arrangements with a local Chinese export agency. We do have an exclusive arrangement for the kits we import from our 2 EPA approved factories. Under contract they cannot sell the same version of engine kit that we are already purchasing from them. This means that nobody else in the US has the same kits that we have--not legally anyway. The only exception is that companies in other countries may import the same kit. Then nothing is stopping them from shipping to the US as single order shipments which are not generally subject to EPA approval.

In order to prove that our kits (both 4 and 2 stroke) really are EPA approved I provide you with the following 4 documents in JPEG format. . The first one is the 2 stroke Certificate Of Conformity. The second one is the 4 stroke Certificate Of Conformity. The last 2 are the EPA declaration forms required by customs before they will clear the goods and release them to the purchaser.
[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]
That was an interesting read 2 Stroker, thanks for posting. Gonna have to re-read in the morning.



The EPA thing. I was on a research vessel that was contracted to find and retrieve a lost 30 ton navy anchor. We find the thing and haul it up on deck. The EPA comes out and informs us that we have to replace the mud stuck on the anchor. I informed the guy that as it was winter, all the good mud stores were closed. Dirty look and he got back in his little boat and left.

.flg.
 

happyvalley

New Member
Jul 24, 2008
784
1
0
upper Pioneer Valley
thats why i said the amount of pollution coming from our little engines, even the ones that are larger cc than allowed by state law, is about equal to a squirrel fart. even a hocker like the 212 predator doesnt produce as much emissions as a car.
That's no longer true, certainly not the case with modern automobile engines.
Today's cars have been so constricted with emission controls that many small engines, particularly 2 stroke, produce much more.
 
Last edited:

BarelyAWake

New Member
Jul 21, 2009
7,194
21
0
Maine
I've heard that before... many times... yet I'm still having a hard time accepting it on hearsay alone - even a small car often has 40 times the displacement of a 50cc w/an appetite to match so I'm just wondering, is there any reputable substantiation for this assertion?

No question at all that two strokes can be one the least efficient when it comes to fuel consumption, and emissions compounded by misuse/overuse of two stroke oil and in an equivalent comparison they'd be far worse... but with our application it becomes difficult to accept at face value & that's not even including our small four strokers...

If anyone has a reputable source, it'd be greatly appreciated...
 
Last edited:

happyvalley

New Member
Jul 24, 2008
784
1
0
upper Pioneer Valley
This is from Lou on another venue and I think it sums it up nicely because it's case specific with these small engines denoting the difference between 2 and 4 cycle and follows up it with a simple calc that makes sense.

Part of the issue in comparing emissions with these engines is that EPA and CARB emissions for small engines use a different standard than for autos. Autos are rated in units of grams per mile. Small engines are rated in Grams per KW output per hour. So, to convert units, multiply HP * 0.746 * the emissions rating to get the grams per hour, then divide by the miles ridden in an hour. (Assuming a fixed speed - which can vary depending on the gearing, engine size, drive, ...)

Further complicating the issue is that the EPA and CARB has different emissions limits for 2 stroke versus 4 stroke engines. 4-stroke emission limits are MUCH lower than 2-stroke limits... (In 2005, 2-stroke emission limits for hydrocarbons (unburnt fuel) and nitrous oxides were reduced from 72 grams per KW-Hour to 50 Grams per KW-H. In comparison, in 2007, 4 stroke limits were reduced to 8 grams per KW-H.)

Standard 2-stroke engines tend to pump a lot of unburned gas through the engine and out the exhaust, as the exhaust port opens and remains open while the inlet port opens. The exiting exhaust tends to 'pull' the fuel-air mix into the cylinder, but some of the fuel goes straight through... About 25 to 30 percent. This process, where the fuel bypasses the cylinder, is known as 'short-circuiting.'

You can add a catalytic converter to a two-stroke, to allow it to meet CARB emissions standards for two stroke engines. The fuel STILL short circuits the cylinder - it just gets burned inside the converter. Mitsubishi came up with a design wrinkle http://www.mhi.co.jp/technology/review/pdf/e383/e383151.pdf that allows their TLE series engines to exceed CARB emissions standards by adding a second, air-only port. This port gets opened first and the portion of the incoming gas which 'short circuits' the cylinder is mostly air, instead of air-fuel; this reduces unburned fuel to something less than 5 percent of the total. Mitsubishi refers to this approach as a 'stratified scavenging' design. Stratified scavenging not only allows the engine to meet CARB 2-stroke emissions standards without a catalytic converter, it also increases fuel mileage, as the wasted fuel is reduced by over 80 percent.

If you assume a 2 HP, 2-stroke engine on a bike traveling at 30 MPH where the motor meets 2-stroke CARB emissions standards, you can calculate the equivalent EPA emissions as if for a car. In this case, the bike still emits 5 to 6 times the pollutants than a car does, which meets EPA highway emissions standards. (the main problem being the unburned hydrocarbons) Potentially, If you added a catalytic converter to the Mitsubishi design, you could probably get close to meeting EPA highway emissions limits.

4-stroke CARB Emissions standards are about 6 times more stringent (8 grams versus 50 grams emissions) than 2-stroke CARB standards, so, if you do the same calculations for a 4-stroke motor, (with the same assumptions) it would meet EPA highway standards.

Two stroke exhausts can be designed so that they are 'tuned' to a specific engine RPM, so that the pressure pulse from the exhaust is partially reflected back towards the engine, and it 'pushes' some of the unburnt fuel back into the cylinder just as the port closes. Although this helps, it only really 'works' at or near the pipe's design RPM, so in use, it only really helps part of the time.

The HT type 2 stroke engine puts out many times the emissions per cc of displacement than does the auto engine with emissions controls. This is in part due to the lack of emissions controls, and in part because the bike runs for at least twice as long per mile (at cruise.)

The CARBII/EPA emissions which these small engines must conform to are intended for weedeaters/generators, or other off road or non-highway applications.

CARBII emissions are in units of grams per KW of output per hour. For two stroke engines, the limit is 50 grams (unburnt HC + NOx emissions) per KW Hour. (4-stroke engines are only 8 grams per KW per Hour!) A HT engine is about 3.5 HP per Grubee. Assuming a 3.5 HP (2.6KW) engine that just meets CARBII emissions and travels at a constant 30 MPH:

2.6KW x 50 grams = 130 grams emissions per hour, for this motor.

You spread the 130 grams over 30 miles (1 hour at 30 MPH) and you
end up with 4.3 grams per mile emitted, for hydrocarbons and nitrous oxides.

130 / 30 = 4.3 gr@mile

2-cycle Carbon Monoxide emissions are allowed to be about 500 grams per KW per hour. Following the same calculations as above for CO yields 52 grams of carbon monoxide per mile.

2.6KW x 500 gr. = 1300 gr. emissions per hr.

then:

1300 / 30 = 43.3 gr@mile

Per the EPA:
The current Federal certification standards for
exhaust emissions from cars are 0.25 gram per mile HC, 0.4 gram per mile NOx, and 3.4 grams per mile CO.
So, the hypothetical bike meeting CARBII standards emits 6.7 times more HC/NOx emissions per mile than the car which just meets the EPA emissions limit. 4.3 / (.25+.4))

In addition, that bike generates about 12 times the carbon monoxide emissions per mile.
 

BarelyAWake

New Member
Jul 21, 2009
7,194
21
0
Maine
Interesting & a logical presentation, it is however completely unreferenced & based on a number of assumptions (HP ratings, emissions based on CARBII maximums, run time discrepancies, worst case w/2 stroke vs best case w/4 etc.)...

While I'm inclined to accept the presented hypothesis generally, it is also obviously primarily supposition with a very evident bias - which leaves me still somewhat uncomfortable with the conclusions.

This does clarify some of the issue for me, so for that I thank you... it however also brings to light yet more questions - for example the overall "footprint" of the consumption itself, the amount of fuel used and it's overall impact vs just emissions. A classic example is the hotly debated topic regarding electric vehicles, which while obviously they have zero operating emissions - simply derive their fuel from external sources, then stored in a toxic "disposable" medium, which may or may not reduce the environmental impact appreciably.

I'll admit I've many questions & few answers, that I'm adding a layer of complexity not previously addressed - I just find it quite difficult to fully embrace the proposition that the motorized bicycle I sit astride is "worse" than the SUV idling next to me, if for no other reason than I use less fuel annually (as an all season, daily driver/commuter) than it will require just during it's next fill-up...
 
Last edited:

Bikeguy Joe

Godfather of Motorized Bicycles
Jan 8, 2008
11,837
252
63
up north now
Hmmmmm pour a "general amount" of oil into some gasoline, then run it through a piston ported two stroke, and out come flowers and warm fuzzies.

Not to mention the oil dripping out of the exhaust..that's gotta be somewhere in the equation.

How's that for a scientific assessment? ;)
 

Mike B

New Member
Mar 23, 2011
2,256
7
0
Central CA
I have no doubt that 50 cc 2 strokes pollute more than 5 liter car engines.

Try this simple test. Stand behind the modern 5 liter car and the happy time bike when both are idleing in the driveway. See which stinks more.