Detonation: An engines biggest threat

GoldenMotor.com

crmachineman

New Member
May 24, 2012
259
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New Hampshire
Hello everybody.
This has been a nagging thing on my mind for some time now. Every once in a while, I log on to this forum and look over how things are going, and I always seem to find people experiencing extreme frustration with severe engine problems. From head nuts coming loose, to wrist pin bearings falling apart and destroying the entire engine, there is usually one culprit for all of these problems; DETONATION.

For those who are not sure what this is and what causes it, read on.

Detonation is the spontaneous ignition of a portion of the air/fuel mixture.

Normally, the spark plug should initiate combustion, and that flame front will expand until all of the air/fuel mixture is burned. This ideal situation will transmit the most energy to the rear wheel. However, this does not always happen this efficiently. As the flame front expands, pressure in the cylinder increases. As pressure increases, temperature of the air/fuel mixture also increases proportionately. Once pressure and temperature inside the cylinder reaches the critical flash point temperature of the particular type of fuel that is being used, any remaining air/fuel mixture that has not yet been burnt will spontaneously ignite(explode).

These engines we are using are old design, without knock sensors and sophisticated engine management controls. Today's fuels are not of the quality that many of us remember from several decades ago, and in order for us to operate these engines reliably, we must pay careful attention to detonation, as it is causing numerous problems for many motorized bicycle operators.

Extreme cases of detonation will be easily noticeable by the engine sounding loud, usually during extended periods of full throttle operation. However, it is very common to have partial detonation occurring without these noticeable symptoms.

When the rapid pressure spike of detonation occurs, there is little constructive work that can be done, so much of this energy is converted into heat which only aggravates the problem. The pressure spike transmits powerful forces to the piston, often resulting in damage to the bearings and even complete breakage of the crankshaft itself. I still keep a piston on the shelf that has a quarter inch diameter hole right through the center of the crown as a reminder.

What to do about eliminating detonation?

High octane, leaded racing fuel for competition 2 stroke engines is available in 5 gallon pails and works beautifully, however costs about $16.00/gallon.

The stock cylinder heads have limited thermal capacity and are very flimsy and should be replaced with a properly designed head with increased cooling capacity and the right size combustion chamber for the particular engine configuration that you are running.

I will make a short post in swap shop area to deal with the nitty-gritty on combustion chamber sizes, and where to get the right cylinder head for your engine.

-Fred
 

crmachineman

New Member
May 24, 2012
259
2
0
New Hampshire
Anti-Deto cylinder heads

This is a follow up post for my talk about resolving detonation problems with the 2 stroke engines.

I make a comprehensive line of billet aluminum cylinder heads for the "big" 66/80cc motorized bicycle engines that use 8mm studs.

I sell on ebay, but you can also go to my website, www.crmachine.com

I make heads in three different combustion chamber sizes:

5.3cc , 6.0cc , and 7.2cc

The 5.3cc size is a high compression head that should only be used with a top level racing fuel.

The 6.0 cc size is good for restricted stock engines using normal pump fuel, or advanced engines using race fuel.

The 7.2 cc size is good for advanced engines using normal pump fuel.

With the proper head selected for your particular engine configuration, you will be assured of maximum performance, without harm to your engine.

I hope this was helpful.
Thank you
-Fred
 
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maniac57

Old, Fat, and still faster than you
Oct 8, 2011
4,484
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memphis Tn
Really? Detonation in a 6-6 1/2:1 two stroke piston port engine?
Sounds like a sales pitch to me.
No offense, but I doubt many of the problems experienced with ht's are detonation related.
Poor quality steels and bearings are much more likely.
Detonation does not usually occur until above 10:1.
(assuming the timing is not off)
 

crmachineman

New Member
May 24, 2012
259
2
0
New Hampshire
Well, a sales pitch?
No way. Not a chance!
Trust me Maniac57, that would be the last thing I will stoop to. You just don't know me.
I read these posts, and there are numerous posts of highly frustrated people trying to solve these problems, problems that I have had myself. The problems I had were exactly like many, many of the problems I see people complaining about on a regular basis. The reason why I started making these cylinder heads was not only to create a job for myself that I love doing, but to solve the problems with my motorized bicycle, which I love to use. If my products didn't work, I wouldn't make them, you can be sure of that. I started cautiously, with a single prototype. Some people here may even remember it. And I tested and tested and refined and tested some more.
There is one thing that I will not compromise on, and that is truthfulness about results. I will openly be truthful about things, even when it is at my own detriment, because it is the right thing to do. I check my words carefully to make sure that I'm not even exaggerating in the least.
People who know me, know that I'm a straight shooter, no BS, and I don't talk about stuff unless I know what I'm talking about.
-Fred
 

crmachineman

New Member
May 24, 2012
259
2
0
New Hampshire
Oh, and one more thing. These problems may not happen to all engines. For example GT-5 engines are a low compression design. They have a terrible combustion chamber design, but very low compression, so detonation problems may not be an issue with those motors. Low performance will be the main issue. But, the PK-80 motors have significantly higher compression, and detonation problems with those motors is very common, especially when performance enhancing equipment, like expansion chamber exhaust is fitted. I had massive detonation problems with my early testing of a PK-80 motor, even when I was using a mediocre "banana" expansion chamber exhaust.
Maniac57; I didn't drill that hole through the top of that piston! Broken crankshafts, destroyed bearings? I've got a pile of that stuff, and it was all when I was running a stock head. Now my bike runs smooth and fast, and I'm not wrecking things. I take the engine apart, and there is a nice oil film on everything, and the engine runs cool. I hope you still don't think I'm making this up.
When I get negative responses like that, it doesn't really encourage me to try to help people. You might be surprised, but that is the real reason why I made that post: because a fellow motorized bicycle enthusiast destroyed their engine, and I felt compassion for them! Imagine that!
-Fred
 

crmachineman

New Member
May 24, 2012
259
2
0
New Hampshire
by pump fuel do you mean regular 87 or high octane 91 or 93? or both? Thanks
Sorry Moto,
I had to deal with maniac57's comment regarding my efforts to make these engines reliable, as they should be.

Anyway, my testing was done with 93 or 94 octane fuel. The kind you get at conventional gas stations. I also tried using 104 octane boost additive, and really didn't notice any improvement. Even with octane boost additives, I was still getting serious engine problems. It was only when I started designing and using my cylinder heads did my engine problems go away.

Of course, it is important to select the right combustion chamber size. For example, if you select the 6.0 cc chamber and use 93 octane fuel on a engine with a good intake and exhaust system, you might get into trouble. For advanced engines using pump gas, I recommend the low compression 7.2cc chamber. That's what I run on my bikes that use normal pump fuel.
-Fred
 

maniac57

Old, Fat, and still faster than you
Oct 8, 2011
4,484
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memphis Tn
I've built many of these kits now and have never seen or heard any of them having detonation problems. I agree detonation is an engine killer so I would notice if it were happening.
I applaud your desire to help motorized bicyclists but I think you are misinforming with this post.
Your heads are a great upgrade and look well designed and built, but telling newbies they NEED one to prevent exploding their motor is misleading.
The ONLY reason I replied is because there are many, many people who upon reading your post, would instantly repeat it never knowing if it's true.
These are the guys who come and post here saying" I want 400hp and 200mph. Which pipe and boost bottle should I buy?"," Will a nitrous oxide kit work on my engine?" etc, etc.
I stand by my original post. Detonation is VERY SELDOM a problem with a stock chinagirl engine.
I intend no disrespect, but your premise is not valid.
 
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Venice Motor Bikes

Custom Builder / Dealer/Los Angeles
Mar 20, 2008
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Los Angeles, CA.
I concur that detonation isn't a problem when using a stock head, (because they have low enough compression that's been well designed for these engines).
Detonation becomes a problem when inexperienced buyers install a fancy aftermarket 'high compression' head thinking that this will simply make their bike go faster without having to make any other adjustments to their engine to compensate for it. :/


Just to be fair... CRM makes a fine product that works well when properly used. ;)
 
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MotorBicycleRacing

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2010
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SoCal Baby!!!
www.facebook.com
Re: Anti-Deto cylinder heads

Fred
Thanks for stepping up and sponsoring the next SoCal Motor Bicycle Racing
extravaganza on April 13th with your generous offer of a couple of your
billet aluminum cylinder heads for the 66 cc 2 strokes.

Arrow Motorized Cycles and Jake's Custom Motorbikes use them on their
race bikes at the track because they are the best head on the market!

Racing really does improve the breed for everyone.

Hope to meet you one day if you ever get out to SoCal.

Check out nashmoto's 2 stroke race bike complete with your head,
which is the latest addition to his race bike stable,





 
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maniac57

Old, Fat, and still faster than you
Oct 8, 2011
4,484
22
0
memphis Tn
Again, NO DISRESPECT intended or implied. CRMachine makes a great head from everything I have seen about them.
Just don't think the original post is entirely correct when saying the problems are caused by detonation.
 

bigbutterbean

Active Member
Jan 31, 2011
2,417
3
38
Lebanon, PA
I agree that there are MANY problems associated with the 2 stroke "HT" engines (a BIG reason I'm going four stroke). However, there is no hard data to support that detonation is a leading cause of these problems. There are many different causes of these problems. Improper installation/maintenance, abuse, poor manufacturing, low quality materials, wrong air/fuel ratio, wrong fuel/oil ratio, wrong oil, just to name a few.
 

crmachineman

New Member
May 24, 2012
259
2
0
New Hampshire
Well, if you do some research about it, you will find that only severe cases of detonation are detectable by the seat of your pants. Partial detonation can occur without the rider detecting it. There is a company that makes a deto sensor that measures cylinder pressure by using a special sensor that mounts underneath the spark plug. Electronic measuring equipment is used.
Like I said before, the pile of overheated pistons and cylinders and broken crankshafts are just a figment of my imagination? Is that what you are saying?
Sorry man, but how can I agree with you? I have positive test results. It is a free Country, you don't have to believe me. Perhaps you are just running bare bones stock, low power units of the GT-5 type. Well then fine, you can probably get away with an anemic stock set-up. But my engine troubles started when I only did mild modifications to increase power. So, I'm manufacturing these parts, and I don't have a clue, right? I talk to a lot of customers about their issues. Many people email me directly with their problems, and I have sold many heads. You will see, in time, more and more testimony will come out, and it will prove that what I have been saying is true. Just ask the racing experts that are using my heads, and winning. Dude, it's not a coincidence that this is happening.
-Fred
 

Huffydavidson

STREETRACER/MANUFACTURER
Jan 29, 2012
1,076
4
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st.louis,mo.
well here's my experience with Fred's head I got the 6.0 version of stage 2 and I was running upwards of 400 degrees with my PK 80 after installing Fred's head I barely get over to 275 degrees is 55 degrees in Saint Louis and I'm running a number 6 iridium NGK plug. and
I went to harbor freight and bought a metal metal polishing kit for 5 bucks you should see your head polish for the mirror finish on it.what these days I'll get my pictures posted .and thanks for your video on YouTube .
 

supercub

New Member
Nov 1, 2012
56
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New London, CT
I hear most engine noises in 1/2-3/4 throttle, I think bearings more than anything. Anything that can move around while running will make alot of noise that sounds engine related.
 

crmachineman

New Member
May 24, 2012
259
2
0
New Hampshire
I concur that detonation isn't a problem when using a stock head, (because they have low enough compression that's been well designed for these engines).
Detonation becomes a problem when inexperienced buyers install a fancy aftermarket 'high compression' head thinking that this will simply make their bike go faster without having to make any other adjustments to their engine to compensate for it. :/


Just to be fair... CRM makes a fine product that works well when properly used. ;)
Well then how can you explain the overheating problems that I and many other people I've dealt with running the stock head? When I was running the stock head, I had horrible overheating problems. Trashed wrist pin bearings, the 1/4 inch hole in the piston, all happened when I was running the stock head. Again, if you have a bare bones stock motor, you may be able to get away with it, but the moment you start upgrading, you are going to get into trouble. I only had a simple "bananna" expansion chamber and my intake with a 15mm carb. not very advanced at all, and I was detonating like crazy! Huffy davidson just posted with his experiences, check it out.
-Fred
 

culvercityclassic

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2009
3,115
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Culver City, Ca
I have to agree with Fred...he has done the R & D and he proves the head works. I noticed at one of the races Arrow was running all kinds of crazy setups with water pumps going to a water cooled head...soon as that pump failed the motor overheated and blew the piston right out....last race I went too....guess what....all the arrow race bikes were running CRmachine heads...I must say some of the fastest bikes I have seen...Thats some proof to what he is trying say...

I am headed back to the 2 stroke builds and will be using this head on my next race motor...

Keep up the good work...Fred
 

2door

Moderator
Staff member
Sep 15, 2008
16,302
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Littleton, Colorado
Thank you Jeff!
I was starting to worry that I wouldn't be able to find any logical thinking here!
-Fred
Sir,
I have to tell you that making comments like that will not win friends or influence people. That is showing disrespect to the membership here as a whole. Just because everyone doesn't see it your way does not constitute illogical thinking. Please use respect. It is our prime rule.
Thank you.

Tom
 

Venice Motor Bikes

Custom Builder / Dealer/Los Angeles
Mar 20, 2008
7,272
1,810
113
Los Angeles, CA.
No-ones saying his heads dont keep race engines cooler or add more performance... If you read the original post, he's saying that stock HT heads cause detonation that destroys engine parts... (that's absolutely not true). :/