Am I experiencing pre-ignition?

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Mozenrath

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Jan 13, 2011
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This is related to my experimenting with E85 fuel, so this is not related to normal operation on gasoline.

As I've mentioned before, I've been running my bike on E85 and over time I've been working out the kinks. I've gotten it to run just as well except for one problem. I think I'm having pre-ignition.

When I start out on the bike, everything works fine. The idle works fine and the engine can be killed instantly.

Then after I've been riding for about 5 minutes, the engine gets to a point where when I disengage the clutch, the idle speed is way out of control. It revs extremely fast and the kill switch won't kill it. The only way to kill the engine is to turn on the choke and turn the fuel off(I have to do this quickly so I don't eff up my engine). I know that the kill switch isn't the problem because I once yanked off the plug wire and the engine somehow kept going.

I know it's not the throttle and I know it's not an air leak. I'm using an NGK B6HS spark plug.

My only guess is that the engine gets hot enough after a few minutes to light the fuel.

Anyone have any suggestions as to how I can solve this?

.shft.
 

2door

Moderator
Staff member
Sep 15, 2008
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Littleton, Colorado
The term is dieseling, not pre-ignition and can be caused by some component, spark plug electrodes or carbon deposits that get hot enough to glow and will ignite any fuel left entering the combustion chamber. Pull the head and take a look at the combustion chamber and clean off any lumpy carbon deposites that you find then try your experiment again. My guess is that the alcohol is running hotter and causing this condition.
Did you happen to take any temperature readings before and after making the switch to E-85?
Tom
 

Mozenrath

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Jan 13, 2011
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California
Oh okay, I guess its dieseling.

I don't think it's the spark plug because I've tried different plugs. It might be carbon deposits, but the last time I opened the head there wasn't much carbon. I'll still open it up and take a look though.

I am thinking it might be caused by running lean. I richened the mix a little bit and I didn't have the dieseling problem anymore during my 25 minute ride. Though it did start dieseling right as I got home. I don't want to run it any richer because it seems to decrease power. :(

I haven't taken any temperature readings. Perhaps I will.
 

Tohri

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Aug 28, 2010
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People's Republik of Massachusetts
You may be getting a vacuum leak, which would lean out your mix and possibly cause dieseling.

Furthermore, 2 strokes have been known to run without spark ignition over a certain RPM range. A genius at honda was researching it when upper managment basically said 'Shove off, we're a 4 stroke company now' Called it Active Radical ignition.

Anyhow, check and make sure your carb isn't leaking air into your crankcase. Have you re-jetted to compensate for E85 having less specific heat? That can do it too, as the higher effective octane of Ethanol is counteracted by Ethanol being a 'leaner' fuel.
 

Mozenrath

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Jan 13, 2011
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California
How would I check to see if it's leaking air into the crankcase? The intake manifold is gasketed and sealed, and I don't see how it would lead to anywhere else other than the jug.

I drilled the jet with a #67 drill bit, which is a 15% increase. I also have the c-clip at the 4th position, which is where I've averted most of the dieseling but it seemed to start doing it again after 25 minutes. I may try drilling it with a #60(40% from original size) since that's the only other small drill bit I could find. Optimally, I'd like to find a #64 bit which would be a 30% increase which is what I think the size is that's usually used.
 

fllemonlaw

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Oct 1, 2011
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Florida
It's really just a flaw in design of the motor. I would be willing to be that any Jeep you see on the road or a used car lot probably has the same knocking noise. I doubt what you hear now will really ever get worse, the rings will probably wear before anything else happens. The 4.0L is just based on an old design, when you keep adding new technology to an old design you have some minor problems sometimes.
 
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2door

Moderator
Staff member
Sep 15, 2008
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Littleton, Colorado
I think you're on the wrong forum, my friend. We are a motorized bicycle community, not Jeep people. Check before posting here.
Tom
 
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Tohri

New Member
Aug 28, 2010
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People's Republik of Massachusetts
Because you said the idle speed goes way out of control, You should replace the gasket that goes between the crank case and cylinder, head gasket (Lap the mating surfaces flat with 800 grit or better) and check your intake for cracks or pinholes. See if you can't find an Oring seal for the Carburator (NT, RT or CNS? This can make a big difference)
Or get it revving out of control, and have some carb cleaner with you, spray it on suspicious areas and see if it kills the motor or brings the idle speed way down. That's where you're leaking.