Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

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PeteMcP

PeteMcP

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OK, I'm going to have to add my two penn'orth (Brit-speak) here and suggest, without sounding pedantic, from here on in you refer to the leather fork bindings using correct "gaiters" terminology rather than 'gators, which, as we all know, mean something that'll bite your arse if not treated warily. Then again, thinking about it, maybe you were right in the first place. lol!
 
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sportscarpat

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Yeah, definitely Gaiters and not gators.
One thing I can't help but notice in the picture is that I don't see any adjustment to the Gaiters. Bouncing this around with my brother last night he thought that maybe what we are seeing is a device to lock out or limit the fork action on smooth tracks. As he noted due to the swing arm design between the fork legs there is an arc of movement so the forks do not run parallel through their range of motion. I just measured this arc distance on my cad program and found on my forks the distance to be .166". The leather would stretch through this range as the dimension grows through the arc of travel. If the leather tension is set too tight the fork action may lock and if it's too lose the gaitors will slide down the fork. As far as adding consistent friction I can see the gaiter design is not as consistent in it's action as a scissor type device. So, my guess is that although it adds friction it's main purpose may in fact be to dampen free play and thus reduce vibration. Or as my brother thought, it's a simple lockout device and once the forks are locked there is no need for the scissor device that was in common use at the time.
I have sketched out four or five different ways to tension the gaiters from the design Rick suggested to a leather lace design like tying your shoes. One design has no adjustment at all. Slip over the forks and spread the legs to reinstall the swing arms but this would be a problem once the leather stretched.
Back when this team was messing around with this device it was probably a short walk down the street to a local saddlery shop to make adjustments. Seeing as this is so far the only example of this device I have seen, maybe it was short lived and the bikes went back to the scissor design. A final thought, for now anyway, is that I have two pictures of this same model Harley hanging on my shop wall and both bikes do not have either design installed which to me makes for a bouncy ride.
Pat
 
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indian22

indian22

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curtisfox said:
Take a look at both pictures, appears to have frame on both side of the tank. So that would mean a narrow tank with double tube frame............Curt
Click to expand...
Yes Curt that's clearly shown in both photos to be a "duplex", double tube frame & Pat's also correct about the HD fork and scissor damper. The Anzani motor is really trick for it's day with the single overhead cam/valve design. If I remember correctly it's a two valve per cylinder design. Check out the mag is located and driven by & mounted remotely off the gear reduction drive jack shaft (behind the seat tube). I don't recall seeing this mag drive setup on any other bike and I'm intrigued to see the timing drive mechanism required.

I'm guessing about the oil pump being located, it appears on top the crank case and between the two cylinders. better visible in the first photo and oil tank located above the single speed transmission. I've got eye strain from searching the exact spark plug location, but just can't see them. same with carb or carbs (which would be cool) a couple of things lead me to believe there are dual carbs, but perhaps I just want them to be there. I'll research it later. Note the spring saddle on the single seat tube between the double frame tubes.

Temple loaded his bike frame with personal innovation and this Anzani engine is really radical for 1923. Thanks FOG and Curt for the photos I love this old iron! I've seen the second photo, but never stopped to really understand what I was looking at.

I'll not be offended if any that know the truth on what I've speculated about come forward with the necessary answers.

Dual carbs would be cool though! The long air cleaner and the apparent redundancy of fittings below and , less clear, above the intake area are visual clues that make me hope this is the case.

Rick C.
 
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indian22

indian22

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sportscarpat said:
Yeah, definitely Gaiters and not gators.
One thing I can't help but notice in the picture is that I don't see any adjustment to the Gaiters. Bouncing this around with my brother last night he thought that maybe what we are seeing is a device to lock out or limit the fork action on smooth tracks. As he noted due to the swing arm design between the fork legs there is an arc of movement so the forks do not run parallel through their range of motion. I just measured this arc distance on my cad program and found on my forks the distance to be .166". The leather would stretch through this range as the dimension grows through the arc of travel. If the leather tension is set too tight the fork action may lock and if it's too lose the gaiters will slide down the fork. As far as adding consistent friction I can see the gaiter design is not as consistent in it's action as a scissor type device. So, my guess is that although it adds friction it's main purpose may in fact be to dampen free play and thus reduce vibration. Or as my brother thought, it's a simple lockout device and once the forks are locked there is no need for the scissor device that was in common use at the time.
I have sketched out four or five different ways to tension the gaiters from the design Rick suggested to a leather lace design like tying your shoes. One design has no adjustment at all. Slip over the forks and spread the legs to reinstall the swing arms but this would be a problem once the leather stretched.
Back when this team was messing around with this device it was probably a short walk down the street to a local saddlery shop to make adjustments. Seeing as this is so far the only example of this device I have seen, maybe it was short lived and the bikes went back to the scissor design. A final thought, for now anyway, is that I have two pictures of this same model Harley hanging on my shop wall and both bikes do not have either design installed which to me makes for a bouncy ride.
Pat
Click to expand...
Yeah Pat I know your bro is a really sharp stick from comments in past posts about him so I'm not surprised by this good input. That much distance .166" constantly repeating will really work the leather and stretch is inevitable, thus the critical need for frequent adjustment...regardless of the initial supposed solution to problem or problems they were trying to solve with this race bike. The actual bike equipped with gaiters that I viewed didn't use a single flat of leather; it was wrapped with what appeared to be heavy leather boot laces and tied off, much as I and others have done when wrapping bar hand grips. The leathers had no method of adjustment beyond re wrapping of both gaiters. It seems that's a short term solution. The scissor damper leathers require compression discs that are adjustable and I'm certain it would not have been successful as a design without easy adjustability of leathers.

The two photos you have and the original photo I posted along with many other photos from this period of racing show the teams were searching for answers to varying track conditions. The photos show un-sprung girder forks, spring forks and spring forks with scissor damping in the same time frame of racing and I'd say the gaiters were just another effort to win on a particular track and all the teams were searching for the correct setup for a single race.

I plan to make a boot lace style gaiter for a Sunlite dual spring fork with the compression plates, which I described earlier, when I get a round to it. I doubt the legs of the Sunlite are rigid enough to withstand much pressure without bending so using these much beyond proving concept will require more leg rigidity for daily use. other than that it's a one day deal to construct a pair of gaiters to "carefully" test.

Rick C.
 
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Ralph hop

Ralph hop

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I was wondering about the keystone Harleys with the lugs. They were brazed or soldered together and the bottom unbolted was plate Steel that bolted back on? How did they make the lugs because I would think a guy could market them, wink wink.. It would be a fun project learning how to gas weld with wires and then piece it all together.
 
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PeteMcP

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Speaking of Anzani's... you might find these pics interesting Rick, specially the twin carb set up. And yes, believe it or not, these are multi-media models, just as finely detailed as the real thing. How does building a 1:9 scale motorcycle chain from individual photo-etched links/pins sound?
I'm in the process of combining two of my interests - motorcycles and model building. Been drooling over Japanese company Model Factory Hiro's outstanding range of 1:9 scale classic motorcycle kits and I'm having trouble deciding whether to opt for building a Brough Superior or Montgomery Anzani as a belated Christmas present to myself. Worthwhile checking out MFH's range of motorcycle kits which also include Vincents, Harleys and others as well as a lot of race/classic cars.

19_Montgomery_British_Anzani_Motorcycle__Full_Detail_Multi_Media_Kit_71286.jpeg
mfhk540_9.jpg
DSC_0029-2_02s_02.jpg
 
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indian22

indian22

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Lovely Pete and I'm excited that you are contemplating a cycle model 'cause we've seen your modeling skill with trains. I'm also a fan of the Brough Superior.

So it seems I wasn't just dreaming dual carbs, perhaps Amal's, as well as 4 valves per cylinder at least on this model. I'm pleased to know such a twin existed. Though I'm not convinced that the first two photos depict a four valve head and don't show four exhaust pipes.

Magneto mounted forward on this model to allow room for the right hand shift and kick start transmission plus an absolutely beautiful girder/ leaf spring fork with dual friction dampers on the head. Also it seems an adjustable steering damper can be seen at the top of the headset bearing

What date does this model depict Pete? I'd think a bit later than '23, but the innovations resulting in a 108 mph race bike in 1923 leads me to think this roadster could be that early as well.

Thanks Pete I'll dig into my research with a bit more energy knowing this model represents real tech.

Rick C.
 
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indian22

indian22

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PeteMcP said:
OK, I'm going to have to add my two penn'orth (Brit-speak) here and suggest, without sounding pedantic, from here on in you refer to the leather fork bindings using correct "gaiters" terminology rather than 'gators, which, as we all know, mean something that'll bite your arse if not treated warily. Then again, thinking about it, maybe you were right in the first place. lol!
Click to expand...
Quite right Pete about the gator's bite, yet they're quite tasty if one bites first!

Rick C.
 
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PeteMcP

PeteMcP

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Rick,
MFH's blurb says their Montgomery British Anzani kit builds a model originating from 1920. Doing a quick search online I also found pics of an identical protoype bike from 1924 which sold at one of Bonham's auctions. Bang on the money, timescale-wise.
 
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indian22

indian22

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Ralph hop said:
I was wondering about the keystone Harleys with the lugs. They were brazed or soldered together and the bottom unbolted was plate Steel that bolted back on? How did they make the lugs because I would think a guy could market them, wink wink.. It would be a fun project learning how to gas weld with wires and then piece it all together.
Click to expand...
Sportsman Flyer has produced these Keystone type mounts for years, real slick mount system. I built one using steel, but aluminum would work or a combination of the two. My Harley Peashooter needed the extra mounting space for the Honda 5 speed engine. I used a Sportsman Flyer frame and cut the loop and down tube out to make room for the "Keystone" motor mount which can be unbolted to drop the motor straight down while still attached to the Keystone motor mount. Prior to dropping the motor I install two wing plates on either side of the Keystone using pre drilled holes in the plate. These allow a stable base for the motor which can't possibly fall over when moving the bike frame. I leave the base plate attached so I can work on the motor in a vertical position, attached by bolts or clamps to the work bench...or un attached for moving around. It's a mount system for racing that's really practical for road bikes as well.

Rick C.
 
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indian22

indian22

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I found that the Temple Anzani morphed at times it was shown with two exhaust port heads, 2 per cylinder and in other photos with just dual exhaust. Two exhaust pipe on each side of the bike. Both heads had the dual cam and 4 valves per cylinder. Also the Anzani can be found with single or dual carbs & 2 distinct styles of dual carb manifolds. The Temple has the long carb air intake which indicates twin carb both mounted with air intakes on the same side. Other manifolds had one carb intake on either side of the motor. 38 hp in the early twenties is quoted for the British built Montgomery Anzani production road bikes that Pete mentioned & that's pretty impressive.

I also learned the Temple Anzani had a multi-speed transmission, at first I thought it to be a single speed jack shaft and magneto setup, but it's a multi speed transmission with hand shifter. The magneto is small & located under the carbs, and not an oil pump as I first conjectured. The mag location on other Anzani's I looked at were mounted forward on the crankcase in a fashion similar to Indians mount location & driven by a gear train. I've no idea how the mag drive on the Temple bike actually worked.

I find these motors fascinating.

Rick C.
 
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indian22

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Thanks Mr. B. There's photos of an Anzani radial three cylinder scale reproduction mounted on a bike frame & it looked right at home...I think it was located in France? Also a 5 cylinder radial mounted on another bike that the lowest head almost touched the ground, totally impractical yet interesting and working scale models. Both photos unfortunately were protected from saves.

I've built a bench stand on which to securely support the E-twin in a loop frame for final fitting, and e motor testing and finishing while mounted vertically, in an abbreviated loop frame. The engine case with e-motor weighs fifty one pounds and it was way past time to secure it to a stable work surface. I'll have several more complete disassembly's of this case before it's finished so the small amount of time spent to construct the stand was, I feel, worthwhile.

Rick C.
 
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indian22

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The stand will allow me to test the motor/reduction drive with tire wheel combinations prior to mounting in an actual frame. Making alterations while the case is in raw metal & mounted on the work stand is no big deal, but would be rough on a new bike frame, mounting and dismounting, to get everything correct. I'll get everything perfect on the stand, before final disassembly for cleanup and paint and then mount to a finished Sportsman Flyer frame.

I really believe in getting things right before making them pretty. I don't finish as I go; only as I complete. This motor case is no different, really rough at the moment, though it should clean up well by the time it's mounted

Rick C.
 
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