Chronic 4-stroking

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exokinetic

New Member
Mar 18, 2016
108
4
0
Lake Forest, CA
exokinetic: Gotta disagree with you there. Although it make not appear so on the pictures, the piston is right at the top of the bore at TDC. That bit of carbon on the cyl wall would be the distance from top of piston to ring.

EDIT: Sorry, you are right. It is about 5mm down from top of bore but I think it's a bit of a stretch to think I might have the wrong cylinder on there (but what do I know).

Compression has always felt outstanding; starts up right away.

Did you do the blow test on any of your stock exhaust pipes? vis-a-vis Chaz's comment I'm beginning to suspect the exhaust system.

Yea, it's really hard to tell from the pics, but if it was starting up real quick, and you could feel some good resistance trying to spin the crank, it's probably not horribly low on compression.


I will go blow into one of my stockers right now, but I can already say that if you were feeling significant resistance trying to blow through the exhaust, even with the cap off, that seems like a significant issue.


All the excess soot into your combustion chamber, top of the piston, head, cylinder walls, is likely due to not being able to fully empty the cylinder of exhaust gases, or a bunch of excess exhaust gasses being reflected back into the cylinder due to the restriction in the exhaust.

This exhaust gas, having not enough flow to make it out the exhaust ends up diluting the next intake charge so badly that it won't fire (4-stroking) until the exhaust finally catches up and looses enough pressure to allow a few strokes of good 2-stroking, then back to exhaust gas diluted 4-stroking.


This explains why the condition is always persistent, but come and goes as your riding through different throttle positions. Changing carburetion changes WHEN and WHERE it occurs, but won't ever fix it, like you have experienced.


I recommend attempting a run with the exhaust off completely, port open, and see if that corrects most if not all of the 4-stroking. You wouldn't want to leave it like that, but there is nothing wrong with it, many 2 stroke chainsaw engines came from the factory with no exhaust of any kind. The engine won't care, in fact it will like it a lot better then a plug in the exhaust port, I can guarantee that.

If you want I can mail you one of my old stock exhausts. All I use them for anymore is as scrap tube for random projects... I'm pretty sure I have one left out there in one piece.
 

maniac57

Old, Fat, and still faster than you
Oct 8, 2011
4,484
22
0
memphis Tn
I tend to agree with the muffler being the most likely culprit....
but remember ALL chinadolls are jetted blubbery rich when stock, and nearly all will need a smaller main to run like they should.
Fixing the exhaust issue should improve your consistency and allow jetting. (AFTER a 3 or 4 tank break in)
ALSO, I'd suggest switching to 40:1 oil ratio.
Too much oil only aggravates carbon deposits and muffler clogging and IS NOT NEEDED with any decent modern two stroke oil.
I run 40:1 in ALL my chinadolls right from day one and have never had any sort of oil problems.
 

crassius

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2012
4,032
158
63
USA
a muffler that is a bit clogged may still offer little resistance to the amount of air one could blow by mouth - yours sounds very bad - the proper test is to loosen the muffler just 1/8 inch or so and run it a bit to see if problem clears up (taking if off or running too much can cause heat shock to the top of piston if cold air is sucked back making the metal there very fragile)
 

PeterG

New Member
May 4, 2016
14
0
0
Canada
Smaller jets are on order. I was always under the impression that they were jetted lean from the factory to pass EPA. You could be right but also note that I have experienced lean-bogging with stock jet in CNS carb and dropped needle and with the NT-SPEED and dropped needle and the 4-stroking (or misfiring or whatever it is) still persisted.
 

PeterG

New Member
May 4, 2016
14
0
0
Canada
Exhaust test: When I blow in mine there's enough resistance to make my cheeks puff out.
Exokinetic: How's yours? Thanks for the offer to mail me yours but the postal rate from the US will kill me. I'll order a new one from our Canadian distributor once I get a definitive answer.

Anybody willing to blow into an exhaust and tell me if their cheeks puff out?
 

Tyler6357

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2012
1,293
294
83
Santa Barbara, CA
Smaller jets are on order. I was always under the impression that they were jetted lean from the factory to pass EPA. You could be right but also note that I have experienced lean-bogging with stock jet in CNS carb and dropped needle and with the NT-SPEED and dropped needle and the 4-stroking (or misfiring or whatever it is) still persisted.
Okay good, I think you will find the answer to your problem in those jets. If you haven't broken in your engine yet it's recommended that you jet it a little rich for break in, but the 4 stroking should be only slight, if it's missing as much as you seem to indicate here you will need to start with a much smaller jet or you will blow the head gasket on the first steep hill.
 

Chaz

Well-Known Member
Jun 3, 2012
1,004
72
48
Vancouver, British Columbia
OK, if you're lookin like Dizzy Gillespie blowin his horn then that's a problem. That much resistance is abnormal. You have an abnormal muffler. Jetting leaner will help but you'll still have a bad muffler.

FYI the reason the stock jets are rich is to protect the warranty. Same as their over rich mix guidelines.
 

PeterG

New Member
May 4, 2016
14
0
0
Canada
Thanks Chaz. Difficult to quantify the back pressure. It's not like I'm blowing up a balloon but there's more pressure there than I would have expected. I've got a new pipe on order.
 

Chaz

Well-Known Member
Jun 3, 2012
1,004
72
48
Vancouver, British Columbia
When I blew through mine a couple of months ago I was expecting more resistance but it just blew easy. A tiny bit of resistance but only the slightest bit. I did this to compare with the other four I had.

When you get your new one you can open up the flange passage a bit as well to help with breathing. Also the gasket but not too much or thar she blows.

Also, the cns carb has a reputation for being difficult to tune. Some guys really like them but there have been lots of threads about them being overly fussy.
 
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PeterG

New Member
May 4, 2016
14
0
0
Canada
Yeah Chaz, I'll open up the flange (already did it on this one). I've read about the CNS being difficult but if I get this thing running well with the NT I know I'll take another shot at the CNS.
 

PeterG

New Member
May 4, 2016
14
0
0
Canada
Sorry crassius,. A flurry of replies were jumping over each other. Thanks for the info re back pressure. I've got a new exhaust on order.
 

crassius

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2012
4,032
158
63
USA
that should do it

any time dropping the needle doesn't make a change, look elsewhere from the carb
 

PeterG

New Member
May 4, 2016
14
0
0
Canada
FIXED!

Cut apart the exhaust, punched out the iridium core, welded the sucker back together, and she goes like stink.

It appears the exhaust was malformed from birth. The passage at the top of the iridium canister was only about 1/2" in diameter.

Thanks everyone for helping to diagnose this difficult problem.

Cheers,

Peter.
 

a.graham52

New Member
Nov 22, 2013
232
1
0
island of misfit toys, maine
Just an FYI with the CNS. Tune one like you would tune a Mikuni motorcycle carb. The main jet, needle, and pilot circuit and enrichment circuit work all the same way. The idle circuit is backwards in that it controls the air side of the air/fuel mixture instead of the fuel side... I think. It took many moons but I got my cns tuned really good. First thing I noticed is the stock air filter is too restrictive. I found more power with out running an air filter. Found a k&n replacement that was spot on. Next the enrichment circuit is a valuable tool when tuning. I ran the smallest jets possible and then experimented with different amounts of choke. If it ran better with choke on, then I made the Jets bigger. Test and tune WOT first (Main jet) Then test and tune your cruse throttle (needle). Then get your idle spot on (this may effect your needle and Main performance) and then you will be left with this blubbery spot just off idle known as your pilot circuit. Get the smallest jet you can in that sucker. Such a sensitive circuit. Then to top it all off, if you change your oil to fuel ratio, be prepaired to reject everything again.