Starting a Whizzer with an autoclutch

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itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
A quick update on my recently acquired 2006 Whizzer:

The carb was a mess, the old fuel had the orig carb gummed up so bad, the slide would not move. I just so happened to have a new Whizzer replacement carb (for another project), so I bolted it on. Then I threw out the old fuel line and filter and replaced it with new.

The tank had a little bit of old fuel in it as well. I drained what was left and gave the tank a quick rinse with some fresh fuel to clean it out real well. Back onto the bike it went.

I decided a quick oil change was in order -glad I did a quick change. The old oil was pretty dirty.

After a few cranks of the pedals, she roared to life! I ran it for a bit, then adjusted the idle. I went ahead and changed the oil again to be sure the crank case was clean and took her for a ride. I've put about 5 miles on it now, overall, it's running pretty good, but it seems like it runs just a bit warm. I suspect that it could probably use a valve adjustment before I put too many more miles on it.

So far, so good. As soon as it's all dialed in, I'll move forward with some performance upgrades.

More to come...

Rich
 
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Fossil

Fossil

New Member
Mar 15, 2008
228
2
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Guthriesville Pa
Glad to hear that it's running. Keep an eye on the plug. It will tell you many things. Put a fresh plug in and watch it carefully. Running too rich can be just as bad as too lean. Lean will generate more heat. Too rich can actually wash down the oil lubricating the cylinder. Good luck.

Jim
 
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itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
I had the plug nearly out when I noticed it hit the cantilever bar, I could have gotten it out easily enough, but getting a straight shot putting it back in would have required loosening the motor mounts, so I took a short cut and ran it first.

Tomorrow should be sunny, so I'll take a shot at adjusting the valves and I can check the plug then.

Somewhere I think I saw the valve lash at .006 intake and .008 exhaust.
 
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itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
I adjusted the valves and I got a better idle and couple more MPH. So I've made some real progess on the intial tuning.

While riding, I noticed the clutch wasn't grabbing real well, it would squeal a bit and as I wind up the throttle, I could feel it occasionally slip and re-catch above the normal lock up speed.

This morning I pulled the belt cover to inspect the clutch. The bolt was not real tight, so the clutch had a little wobble to it. I pulled the clutch and found a few things:

  • The shoes are shot! Pads are almost completely gone. One shoe broke in my hand.
  • I have the cast iron (or steel) clutch hubs. Pins go all the way thru and are tight. That by itself is a relief
  • The hub has three bearings, and the bearing surface is, surprisingly, in good shape.
  • Other than new shoes, my clutch is in pretty good shape.

Time to make some calls for some new shoes!

Rich
 
Fossil

Fossil

New Member
Mar 15, 2008
228
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Guthriesville Pa
I think you already know who to call. When you get the new shoes you will have to break them in before they will grab real tight. It is just by design that they need to be seated before they work well. It took a lot of miles to finally get them seated. I had two major reasons for the long break in. First I'm not a feather weight. My extra bulk required full shoe contact before it would grab. Second is I have a very strong engine thanks to you know who. lol Because of my bulk and the power of the engine I could glaze the clutch shoes in a matter of minutes.
Good luck. Your on the right track!

Jim
 
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Fossil

Fossil

New Member
Mar 15, 2008
228
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Guthriesville Pa
Keep the center bearings well lubed but not too much. You don't want to sling grease out into the clutch bell. You won't go very far with greased clutch shoes. Please don't ask me how I know this... lol

Jim
 
Quenton Guenther

Quenton Guenther

Dealer
Feb 21, 2008
686
1
0
Outer Banks of North Carolina
Hi itchybird,

Just a few comments to help in your quest for a working Whizzer automatic clutch. Rather than remain politically correct, I will simply relay information as to "how I would personally" setup my own clutch on personal bikes.

Some of my methods are considered "different", but I will also explain why, and more importantly, the end results.

When I modify my personal units, I look at several issues, including the shoe pivot pins, hub I.D., shoe clearance, bearing race condition, bearings, and clutch alignment.

If the hub is aluminum the pivot pins aren't a problem. If the hub I start with is cast iron, chances are the shoe pivot pins need to be replaced. One of the following conditions will prevail........

The outside of the large pulley [drive side of clutch] will be smooth, meaning the pins are only pressed into the hub approx. 1/4".

The outside of the large pulley will have 3 indentations [looks like someone hit it with a very rough hammer] that appear to do something , maybe a rough weld. This also means the pins are short and need replaced.

The large pulley will have what appears to be the head of a "smashed" nail in 3 locations. This version, although very rare, doesn't need the shoe pivot pins replaced.

In order for my clutch to work correctly, the shoe pivot pins MUST be solid and straight. If the pins are loose or bent the shoe will not contact the hub evenly, and the clutch will SLIP like crazy. If I were to neglect repairing this problem, my clutch would surely "come apart" at high RPMs, and destroy most of my clutch in the process.

The current clutch on my 1999 [holds speed record at 68 MPH] originally had loose pins, I simply removed the pins and replaced with parts from ACE hardware. I purchased three 1/4" X 20 shoulder bolts that were 1.5" long and three 1/4" X 20 nuts. Next I drilled the 3 empty holes in the hub [where I removed the loose pins]with a 13/64" drill. Threaded the 3 holes with a 1/4" X 20 tap. Next I ran a 1/4" drill into the pivot hole in each of the 3 shoes to allow it to fit over the shoulder of the bolts purchased earlier. I then attached each shoe via the 1/4" bolts through the larger pulley and then used the 1/4" nuts to lock the bolts in place. I put a very small "dab" of grease on the shoulder of each bolt and used blue Loctite on the threads in the process. When I finished the bolts were too long and I simply used a belt sander to make them flush with the nut.

The correct way to make the clutch produce minimum slip is to install clutch, ride until it slips. Remove clutch, sand off glazed section of each shoe, install clutch, ride until it starts slipping, then repeat the process. This may require 8 or more clutch shoe resurfacing [removing glaze from the shoes], and mostly depends on the I.D. of the output hub. Sadly the hub I.D. vary and each time the parts are changed [shoes replaced, different hub, etc]they must go through the "break-in process".

Because I don't always have the time or patience, I normally place my front wheel against a building, open the throttle, untill I see a little smoke or the hub turning colors [I have turned them red-hot in the process]. I then take apart, remove the glaze, and run it a second time. After I removed the glaze from the second run, I find the clutch to be ready for some serious work. The clutch hub on my "Wheelie Machine" [see at upper left] is several different shades of gray, but can really hook the motor to the wheel. The object is to have over 90% of each shoe contacting the inside of the hub. Once a high ratio of shoe contact is created, the shoes have a very hard time slipping and glazing the shoe. Most often a new clutch will have less than 15% of the shoe touching the inside of the hub.

On all my personal clutch systems the bearing race has been replaced with a special hardened version [Rockwell 58 rated], and keep everything in line all the time [no wobble or bearing failure].

Hopefully this information will help.

Have fun,
 
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itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
Hey Quenton,

I received the new shoes that you sent me yesterday and tomorrow I will be doing the install.

I appreciate you taking time to once again go thru the steps for a proper install. My clutch has the pins that go thru, but have marginal staking on the back side. The pins are tight and straight and I was debating whether to do the bolt replacement, but after reading thru your note here, I think I will go ahead and upgrade to the 1/4 x 20 bolts. I only want to do this once, might as well do it right. Especially as I plan to do the typical NE-5 performance updates. The only step I am skipping is the use of the rockwell hardened sleeve. Maybe I'll do that when I deck the head.

Thanks again for taking the time to remind us how to do it proper. I'll be sure to post my results. I expect good things.

Rich
 
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itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
On close inspection last night, I noticed the pins were not as straight as I thought they were, replacing them is clearly the right thing to do.

I noticed that the pins have an integrated washer that the pads sit on to raise the shoe enough to keep the side of the shoe from dragging on the hub. I figured I'd use a thin washer (about .040) between the shoe and the hub for the same reason.

I also found that one of the sealed bearings in the hub is toast and will need to be replaced. It's one of the bearings that ride on the mounting bolt. Hopefully, I can find replacements locally and still get it back on the road today.

Rich
 
cannonball2

cannonball2

Well-Known Member
Oct 28, 2010
3,682
221
63
Colonial Coast USA.
Do yourself a favor and let Quenton rebuild it for you. I just got mine back(quick turn around too) and am super impressed with the work he did Check the pics. Hardened sleeve, through bolted, new ball bearings, and I beleive the shoes were resurfaced. From what I gather this is a rather hard part to come by if you toast it. BTW I installed the allen set screws in the shoes to give them more mass. Seems to work pretty well as this clutch is aggressive enough to throw the gravel in my driveway on take off.
 

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itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
Well, I couldn't find that missing bearing locally today, so I went ahead and pulled the motor instead. A bit impulsive perhaps, but it was going to happen anyway, so it might as well happen now. It came out pretty fast, just under a half hour.

With the motor out, I can now focus on what was going to be phase two:
  • Mushroom lifter conversion
  • Deck the head for added compression
  • Advance the timing
  • Cylinder and valve work, to include port clean-up work
Upon pulling the cover, I noticed that the original cam was already advaced one tooth. The original lifters were in better shape than I expected, much better than some of the pictures I've seen posted from other bikes. I have a new NE-5 cam/lifter set, ready to go.

I did a quick tear down of the motor, removed the old cam/lifters and removed the cylinder head as well. Looks like Quenton will have some more work to do in the near future.

As for the clutch, the old pins came out quite easy, too easy really. Makes me realize the value of the upgrade that much more. I appreciate the pics you guys posted, this forum is a great place to share info. That hardened sleeve looks pretty nice...

More to come next week.

Rich

ps thanks to Quenton for the number of the replacement bearing, simplifies my search
 
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Quenton Guenther

Quenton Guenther

Dealer
Feb 21, 2008
686
1
0
Outer Banks of North Carolina
Hi itchybird,

Instead of replacing the original lifters with the needed "mushroom" version, Joe Lin used a torch to soften the lifters and transfer the wear from the camshaft lobes to the lifter base. Because it wasn't a controlled process, the lifter softness will vary. Some wear quickly, some still damage the camshaft lobes, however most will "fool" you. The reason this takes place is because the center of the lifter is much softer than the outer section, and once it wears to the soft center it goes very quickly. An example of this concept concerns the exhaust lifter. The exhaust lifter is always the first to wear because it normally runs hotter.

I have seen the softened lifters show major wear as early as 50 miles and as long as 500 miles, but there is no way of telling the life span of the lifters. The softened lifters still "dance" down the side of the lobes and cause stress on the valve train.

A really neat side effect of the mushroom lifter is increased duration [valves are open longer], because the wider base stays on top of the lobe longer, and then lands softly on the side of the lobe.

If you have problems locating the bearing, let me know and I can send you one [I just ordered 50 more for stock] in the mail.



Have fun,
 
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itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
The intake lifter looked pretty good.

The exhaust lifter had very visible signs of wear, but the wear was even, it was along the edge where you would expect the wear to be. I could tell that the lifter has been turning in it's bore, the edges were rounded, but it did not have that 'hammered' look that so many exhibit in pictures I've seen. But it was high time for replacement, that much was certain. The fact that it needed a change at under 500 miles reminds us all that the quality is just not there.

The cam itself did not show actual damage, the wear pattern actually looked pretty darn good and probably could have been reused. But from my muscle car days, I was trained that cams/lifters are always replaced as a set and so I purchased a replacement NE-5 cam and mushroom lifters set. I did a quick check with the calipers from base circle to tip of lobe:

New cam: 0.745"
Old cam: 0.740"

Assuming the base circle is the same (calipers said it was close), it would appear the new cam has slightly more lift as I don't think the old cam had .005" wear. Combined with the added duration created by the larger lifter base, I should get a little bump in performance.

I've worked on all kinds of engines, and it's been fun cracking open the little Whizzer. Looking forward to seeing how she runs when I'm done.

I think I have a local source on the bearing, if not I'll give you a quick call tomorrow.

Thanks again for all the help.

Rich
 
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itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
I had a boss (a QA manager) that used to say 'never underestimate the power of observation...'

Well, I just looked very closely at the intake valve, it is obvious to see from the wear patterns how much of the lifter protudes from the lifter bore. Then I held the old lifter to the new lifter and one thing is very clear:

The tip of the mushroom is nearly as thick as that wear pattern. And with an additional .005" of lift and less lash (the bike had approx .012" of lash), there is insufficient clearance -the mushroom head is too thick. Seems like I heard that somewhere...

My observation suggests that Quenton's lifter mod probably is a good idea.
 
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Quenton Guenther

Quenton Guenther

Dealer
Feb 21, 2008
686
1
0
Outer Banks of North Carolina
Hi Rich,

A really good look at the latest mushroom lifters may also yield another issue. Be sure to check the base of the lifters to make sure they are level. I have seen the base ground at such an angle to produce a difference of .0625" during rotation. An incorrectly made lifter can change the clearance by a drastic amount. I suggest placing the lifter in a lathe and make sure the base is level. The lifter won't be as hard as the American versions, therefore a normal tool bit will easily cut the lifter to correct dimensions. Be sure to only remove enough to level the base [if needed], and avoid making the lifter shorter. If you have a digital scale you will also find the lifters to be very heavy as compaired to the stock lifters. Guess lifter weight wasn't considered, but should be! When they made the lifters, they neglected to drill the center [vintage Whizzer lifters were hollow] deep enough. Place the factory lifters in a lathe and a 3/16" drill bit in a chuck and drill to within 1/4" of the bottom of the lifter. While in the lathe, cut the height of the base to 1/8" to avoid the lifter hitting the bottom of the lifter bores at high RPMs. Always remove the top of the base, not the bottom [only cut bottom to make them 100% level].

The camshafts are computer generated and most are very close, however they will vary approx. .002" to .005".

I suggest setting the intake clearance to .006", and the exhaust to .008", the reasoning has to do with heat. The exhaust valve runs hotter and will stretch more than the intake. The exhaust has hot gases blowing across the stem, whereas the intake has gasoline [cooler] crossing the stem.


Have fun,
 
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itchybird

Member
Nov 4, 2009
316
6
18
SF Bay Area.
A lathe is one piece of equip I don't have, so you may get a couple lifters in a box with a couple of cylinder heads. I'll probably ship them out tomorrow or wed.

Rich
 
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