Cylinder honing

GoldenMotor.com

MacZulu

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Jul 3, 2015
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a mechanic I work with said he thought it was strange I wasn't honing my cylinder to break in the motor, I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere here. it seems like an easy way to speed up the breaking in period, so I was going to pick up the right size and try it out. when I did search I didn't see much relative, I saw Davezilla mention rehoning and new rings but that was it.

what's the thoughts here on cylinder honing?
 
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2door

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Sep 15, 2008
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Be very very careful. The plating on the cylinder walls is extremely thin. It won't take much to ruin the cylinder. Davezilla will warn you about this too. Possibly your mechanic friend doesn't realize these are plated aluminum cylinders, not cast iron sleeves.

Tom
 

MacZulu

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Jul 3, 2015
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Vancouver
ok, I don't want a paper weight. no I didn't know that they were plated, that's the beauty of the forum.

thank you both for your help, no honing will be done.
 

Davezilla

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Mar 15, 2014
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Ok, here's the lowdown on honing plated cylinders...

If you saw my last post on the honing subject You most likely saw the pictures of the inside of the cylinder bores and you saw just how smooth these bores come new. You also saw a picture of a cylinder with about 1000 miles on it and saw it was mirror smooth, no scratches in the bore, no missing plating, just perfectly glazed. It looked great, but because it glazed before the rings fully seated, it lost compression instead of gaining it as the engine broke in. Yeah, it made nice power and even got stronger as it broke in due to friction reduction and all, but the rings never fully seated so the engine got stronger, then it became weaker. The rings showed me just what I needed to know about why I lost compression and in some areas on the ring the original black coating was still intact. Rings should be shiny smooth bare metal once seated, there shouldn't be any sanding or machining marks on the surface where it rides in the cylinder.
Couldn't I just put in a new set of rings and put it back together? ... Yup... but it'll be short lived.
Like my pictures show, the new cylinders come smooth, no cross hatch pattern or anything for the rings to wear into. I've also had that cylinder in the lathe to true up the top of the deck as well as the base. This is where I was able to see that the nikasil coating is .010" thick on these cylinders, and it's been consistant on all the others that I've put on the lathe.
My next step will be to do any port clean up and port work as honing will be the last step before a final cleanup and install onto an engine.
Now a quick word on honing... If you don't know what you're doing or have the right hone for nikasil plated bores, stop there... You can mess them up if you try to use a brake cylinder or small engine hone with the wrong type and the wrong grit stones. You can mess them up if you hone them dry too, you can mess them up if you hone it for too long, and if you don't control the drill's rpm and if you don't move the hone in and out at the right pace to obtain the right cross hatch pattern. I do this type of stuff every day and there is a difference between doing engine work on a daily basis and someone's friend's sister's boyfriend who knows someone who honed a cylinder and ruined their engine because they didn't know what they were doing.
I know it sounds difficult but it's not that bad, a cordless drill set on the low speed setting will spin the hone at about the right rpm so you can obtain a good cross hatch angle, and about 10 to 30 seconds of honing is all it takes on a previously used cylinder that's just glazed. This will allow the new rings to properly seat and the engine to last a lot longer.
On a new cylinder it may take about 30 to 60 seconds with a fine stone hone to get the cross hatch pattern where it needs to be, but either way, gotta check it every few seconds.
With .010" of plating inside the bore and honing should not take off any measurable amount of metal, or in other words, less than .0001" so the amount of metal removed during honing would be neglidgeable when done right. I use a 48mm Flex Hone brand hone and they do make hones for nikasil plated bores which should be used.
 

Davezilla

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Mar 15, 2014
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I agree... there's no reason to take one apart that's half way broken in just to hone it, and you'd need a new set of rings as well as having to start from square 1 with the break in.

Now IF it loses compression later on I can show you which hone to buy and walk you thru the process. Personally I wouldn't hone a cylinder unless it has had some work done to it and somebody wants to re use a performance ported cylinder, AND the plating needs to be in excellent condition with no deep scratches or plating flaking anywhere in the bore.

Personally, I hone all my cylinders since I got the tools to get it done quickly and safely, but if I lost compression on a stock cylinder it would hardly be worth re honing due to the low cost for the cylinders, but part of the reason I started honing mine was because we're talking about 1 or 2 minutes worth of honing vs an hour or more worth of porting when replacing a ported jug...
 

maniac57

Old, Fat, and still faster than you
Oct 8, 2011
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Well said!
I didn't even want to try explaining the differences in plated jugs. I mostly just tell people you can't hone them.
 

MacZulu

Member
Jul 3, 2015
171
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Vancouver
well now I have my original jug off with a broken exhaust stud (don't ask), so I am running a new jug which I haven't cleaned up yet. I am planning on getting the stud out, so far a torch didn't work. I am hoping to get a machinist to drill and re tap it for me, meanwhile I'm waiting for my long dremel bits to arrive to clean up the new jug.

two things
I can now notice the difference my port work did. not huge, but noticeable.
and when my mechanic buddy was checking out the broken stud he said that the cylinder had been honed. he pointed out the cross hatching that was still visible on the cylinder wall, I hadn't noticed before. but he said it had definitely been honed, so the factory I guess. he is also an amsoil rep, so I'll probably end up using that. although most of my research has said that oil quality was really not important to these engines. but I've seen far leaner mixes used with castor or amsoil, which is appealing.

and I'm breaking in anew, am I ok with the original rings?
 

Davezilla

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Mar 15, 2014
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I've seen some cylinders come in new with hone marks on them but it depends on where the seller is getting them from.... the last 4 cylinders I got from Mzmiami look to be honed but way too little cross hatch pattern (they're just machined Very smooth inside the bore), they work great and have some of the best looking ports I've seen as well as really nice casting with nice thick fins. These are the closest thing to a true "bolt on and go" performance cylinder that I've seen, they do require the typical cleanup that all the others do but with nice large ports, and really good castings it makes them very attractive cylinders to base a performance engine build on.

I may just do a few engines up with Dax lowers and mzmiami cylinders with Fred heads to see how well they do without any other mods, they should perform really well with that combo...
 

Davezilla

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How old are the original rings? It is possible to get a set of used rings to seat if they don't have too many miles on them if installed in a new cylinder but it would be a gamble because if they don't seat, then you'll either need to hone the cylinder or replace it to get a new set of rings to seat if it glazes the cylinder wall before the rings seat...
 

crassius

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2012
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yes, got a couple cyls from mzmiami to solve my new skyhawk piston situation - seemed good quality except that one had been dropped and dinged on bottom so that piston didn't fit, shaved 1/8in off and all was good - plating looked good, so honed them a bit more than factory had - ran well & seated quickly
 

MacZulu

Member
Jul 3, 2015
171
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Vancouver
I'm probably well under a 100 miles, closer to 50 maybe. I have the exhaust off right now, so tomorrow I'll look inside to see how the rings look.

crassius you have been buying new engines that were factory honed? mine is a jet engine from zoom because they have a distributor 15 minutes from my place. it's not a 30 or 40mm, somewhere in between. it also has the 12:15 timing magnet, and wide stock intake.
 

crassius

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2012
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yes, I've been seeing a more aggressive hone for last 5 or 6 months & it makes a big diff in seating rings

your rings with only 100 miles should easily seat again
 

MacZulu

Member
Jul 3, 2015
171
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Vancouver
I'm trying Chaz, one thing leads to another. doesn't help that I have as much fun fiddling as riding. also still working on house stuff from moving, and my 20 month old keeps me busy as well

ok crassius I will run these rings and continue on.