Going to try SA 3 speed

turnofftheradio · Nov 10, 2013

I figured I'd keep an eye out for a Sturmey archer 3 speed, as I have been considering a shift kit. Scored one on craigslist today, and got a bunch of great stuff too. The hub appears to shift through the gears, and freewheels. Its a AB hub.

and more!

I don't know jack about any of this stuff, but I wanted a drum up front for a while, so that is an added bonus, the other drum has a threaded part for a sprocket. I can't find a name on the one drum, just japan but the rear one says arai on the lever.
A super cool guy sold me this stuff for $30, plus a nice bin full of odd brackets and metal thingies that may be related to these parts

Think any of this is worth using?

wheelbender6 · Nov 10, 2013

Front drum brakes work well and give your motorized bike the vintage motorcycle appearance. The vintage disc caliper looks cool, but it will require you to get a front disc hub and rotor. Many members have said that a motorized bike with a shift kit and seven spd derailleur provides more gear ratios than necessary, while a good 3 speed hub seems adequate.

turnofftheradio · Nov 10, 2013

Yeah, I'm sure that caliper is going to sit for a while. Most importantly I want to address the hub. I've heard plenty of both good and bad about them. Ultimately, the price of the unit has made it possible for me to find out just how good or bad it is personally. All the other stuff I got was just an added bonus from a guy who had bought a "box of bike parts" from a neighbours for an even better deal than I got. I even got to keep the box itself. Guy said the neighbor died an
d she was into Orange crate bikes. I do wonder if there is more somewhere...

turnofftheradio · Nov 11, 2013

I have looked everywhere for a date code on that 3 speed, and can't find one? Every other one ive seen had a date right under the model.

KnockKnock · Nov 11, 2013

Looks like you've got a set of reproduction Dia-Compe or Weinmann brake levers there - I've got a set of beat-up originals that I'll be using on my build. I believe they are early 60's style "eye-stabber" levers that came on Krates & such before they changed them to the style with a rounded tip (I guess in an attempt to keep people from gouging their eyes out with it?), and usually they are found in the "gold-dot" or "red-dot" variety (the "dot" being the cable retainer), though Fairladys with pink-dot eye-stabbers can be found as late as the 70's. Judging by the color of the hardware, it looks like you've already got an original brake cable in that box suited to red-dots which is a nice score. I don't know a lot about the rest of it, but just from what little I can identify from that lot, I'd think you got a solid deal there. ...but all that's just 2¢ of a ½ wit, and hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will chime with corrections where I may have got it wrong.

turnofftheradio · Nov 11, 2013

KnockKnock said:
Looks like you've got a set of reproduction Dia-Compe or Weinmann brake levers there - I've got a set of beat-up originals that I'll be using on my build. I believe they are early 60's style "eye-stabber" levers that came on Krates & such before they changed them to the style with a rounded tip (I guess in an attempt to keep people from gouging their eyes out with it?), and usually they are found in the "gold-dot" or "red-dot" variety (the "dot" being the cable retainer), though Fairladys with pink-dot eye-stabbers can be found as late as the 70's. Judging by the color of the hardware, it looks like you've already got an original brake cable in that box suited to red-dots which is a nice score. I don't know a lot about the rest of it, but just from what little I can identify from that lot, I'd think you got a solid deal there. ...but all that's just 2¢ of a ½ wit, and hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will chime with corrections where I may have got it wrong.

I'll have to take a closer look. They have a button like a clutch lever or a parking brake? they don't appear to have been used ever. That cable has a little red anodized retainer thing on it, that made me think it wasn't very old, but I was never around those krate bikes.

I'm leaning towards the side that I got a good deal on this stuff too. I'm still stumped on the lack of date on that hub though.
I'm excited to see how bad it will be to lace this into a wheel, that's uncharted territory for me. no doubt there will be a gag reel.

KnockKnock · Nov 11, 2013

I went digging for pics, and discovered I may be wrong about the brake cable. Now that I've seen what the originals look like, it too may be a re-pop, but still very cool. These are the eye-stabbers I was talking about in red-dot:

This is a pic of a gold-dot with the rounded end:

I'm not sure exactly when they changed them up, but if I'm not mistaken, the eye-stabber is an earlier design, however, it carried through into the 70's as a pink-dot on lady-bikes, so..? - not sure. As you can tell, I'm no expert, but I tend to accumulate tid-bits while lurking online.

turnofftheradio · Nov 11, 2013

nice info regardless, thanks for the education!

Intrepid Wheelwoman · Nov 11, 2013

A PDF manual for the AB hub can be found here http://vancruisers.ca/tech/manuals/sturmey-archer-service-manuals/saab.pdf/view

It's an older Sturmey Archer design and was commonly used on English heavyweight bicycles. My 60+ year old Hercules Ladies Heavyweigh Roadster bicycle has one and it still shifts very sweetly. The thing to watch with them though is that the brake linings can easily get contaminated with oil if you're too generous with the oil can.

turnofftheradio · Nov 12, 2013

Intrepid Wheelwoman said:
A PDF manual for the AB hub can be found here http://vancruisers.ca/tech/manuals/sturmey-archer-service-manuals/saab.pdf/view

It's an older Sturmey Archer design and was commonly used on English heavyweight bicycles. My 60+ year old Hercules Ladies Heavyweigh Roadster bicycle has one and it still shifts very sweetly. The thing to watch with them though is that the brake linings can easily get contaminated with oil if you're too generous with the oil can.

Thanks that manual should prove to be useful. I'll play nice with the oil.
My big plan is to use this with a 80cc jackshafted front freewheel, and I feel like a centrifugal clutch might seriously relax the the abuse the hub sees, even with the clutches problems. Hopefully I'll get a few miles out of it.

I have found online that during wwII sturmey did not date code anything. Is it that old?

silverbear · Nov 12, 2013

Can't comment with any authority of your 3 speed hub other than to say that a couple of members here (don't remember who) tried using the older Sturmey Archer hubs found on light weight English bikes of the 1960's and both members had the hub fail under motor poser. It could be that your model is more robust. The ones currently being sold by Sturmey Archer are stronger and have been used successfully with the shift kit. I bought one for a current build, but have not yet used it, so my information is hearsay only.

Seems to me that the worst that could happen is that you try the one you have and if it fails then you replace it with a stronger one. By then you will have learned how to lace a wheel and will be an old hand at it. Good luck with your project.
SB

turnofftheradio · Nov 12, 2013

silverbear said:
Can't comment with any authority of your 3 speed hub other than to say that a couple of members here (don't remember who) tried using the older Sturmey Archer hubs found on light weight English bikes of the 1960's and both members had the hub fail under motor poser. It could be that your model is more robust. The ones currently being sold by Sturmey Archer are stronger and have been used successfully with the shift kit. I bought one for a current build, but have not yet used it, so my information is hearsay only.

Seems to me that the worst that could happen is that you try the one you have and if it fails then you replace it with a stronger one. By then you will have learned how to lace a wheel and will be an old hand at it. Good luck with your project.
SB

Sort of what I figure. Cheap enough to have fun with. Worse case, I kill it but still have a new front drum and that rear drum to replace it with. It's shiney enough to enjoy looking at it. paperweight, book end?

I feel like the problems with anyone using these hubs, motor or not, seem to stem from adjustment issues. At least it seems that opinions may be skewed as a result. Lets find out?

I expect building this into a wheel with the different diameter hubs should offer a more advanced level of frustration for my first lace, so I may lace the front drum in first, as it has equal dia hubs. I have trued a wheel and replaced spokes, just not "from scratch"

Intrepid Wheelwoman · Nov 12, 2013

turnofftheradio said:
Thanks that manual should prove to be useful. I'll play nice with the oil.
My big plan is to use this with a 80cc jackshafted front freewheel, and I feel like a centrifugal clutch might seriously relax the the abuse the hub sees, even with the clutches problems. Hopefully I'll get a few miles out of it.

I have found online that during wwII sturmey did not date code anything. Is it that old?

Yes it's very likely that your hub is that old

These hubs were mostly used on 28inch wheeled heavyweight bicycles and they seem to be fairly robust.

turnofftheradio · Nov 13, 2013

Intrepid Wheelwoman said:
Yes it's very likely that your hub is that old These hubs were mostly used on 28inch wheeled heavyweight bicycles and they seem to be fairly robust.

If only it could tell its story. It sure is clean though, I can't see wear on the gear or spoke holes, or the brake cable arm but it's built well so maybe I shouldn't. I'm excited to take a look in the drum. If this was used much in it's life I'd be surprised. Or it had an impeccably clean owner, or a kid with a polishing wheel shined up a turd extremely well. idk.

professor · Nov 13, 2013

I used SAs on 2 bikes as a jackshaft.
Bike #2 has a HF212 on it.
Only problem I ever had was on one of the hubs, from wear prior to me getting it.

There is a tiny cross shaped selector inside which catches each gear.
It had worn edges. I braised it back into shape (could have bought a new one).
No problem since then.
The click shift deal is great.
Shifting up- you let off the throttle when shifting.
Shifting down can be done anytime as the unit freewheels going down in gears.

I like to shift down with the engine engaged as sometimes the hub is reluctant to go into first gear unless the works are rotating somewhat.

What is amazing is the smallness of the internal parts- you would think they would strip out under foot power or engine power. but they don't.

silverbear · Nov 13, 2013

professor said:
I used SAs on 2 bikes as a jackshaft.
Bike #2 has a HF212 on it.
Only problem I ever had was on one of the hubs, from wear prior to me getting it.

There is a tiny cross shaped selector inside which catches each gear.
It had worn edges. I braised it back into shape (could have bought a new one).
No problem since then.
The click shift deal is great.
Shifting up- you let off the throttle when shifting.
Shifting down can be done anytime as the unit freewheels going down in gears.

I like to shift down with the engine engaged as sometimes the hub is reluctant to go into first gear unless the works are rotating somewhat.

What is amazing is the smallness of the internal parts- you would think they would strip out under foot power or engine power. but they don't.

Do you have pictures of your jack-shafts or a link to your build threads? You mentioned a worn part... so what vintage are these SA hubs? Than you , sir.
SB

professor · Nov 13, 2013

Hi SB, The hubs are old, from the '60s. Somewhere here I think I have pics.- I'll search.

professor · Nov 13, 2013

I did find one on the 212-
I am driving the hub in a convoluted path, Belt with idler/clutch down to a jackshaft - then another belt driving the hub sprocket /gear selector side, then chain drive to the wheel via a sprocket welded to the other side of the SA. The bike uses moped wheels and hubs.
http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=33753

silverbear · Nov 13, 2013

Professor,
You are the only one I know of who has been successful using the old hubs. That is exciting! There are a lot of these old hubs floating around on derelict bikes. I have three in my department of donors I have not bothered removing because I believed they were of no real use. I will happily scavenge them and put them away for safe keeping. In my opinion a motored bicycle doesn't need any more than three speeds, but having those three is awfully nice.

I don't think your build got the attention it deserves, probably because people did not realize what they were looking at. I didn't. On your build thread I have asked for more detailed pictures of your drive line. I'm thinking that the belt driven parts of your set up makes the difference as it no doubt minimizes shock force to the gears. Pretty cool!
SB

professor · Nov 13, 2013

Yeah SB, I have thought of that before about the belt.
But I have whacked it into the next gear by accident occasionally, and have given it full power in first gear witout issue (it pulls pretty good- feels like a small motorcycle).
I have never given it a drag race start though. Thing is this, engine makes quite a bit of torque and 9 hp. It is on the governor at 4 grand and 40 mph.
One other thing- because it is used as a jackshaft- there is less total torque on it verses if it was inside a rear wheel.
But then again, a smaller engine- say 3 hp would equal the torque attacking the hub if it was in a wheel.
in case you wonder- the belt guard is covering the chain drive to a 24v scooter motor driven at 1/2 speed for the lights.

Going to try SA 3 speed

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