too rich - float level?

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jimnz

New Member
Jan 25, 2014
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new zealand
im fairly noob but competent.

ive had a 70cc china motor for a week.
when i got it going it was running rough, wouldnt idle and blew smoke.
i leaned the needle right up - no change.
the plug looked black and wet and ooze was coming from the exhaust
(running 40mils per liter of oil)

i figured out its way too rich and bent the float clip down a few mils
It now runs better (about 50kms on a 44 tooth sprocket)
its still blows a small amount of smoke and shows a dry black plug.

ive since ran it for 1.5 lts of gas. my next thought is to change out the plug for a new one and view the color?
if black/white readjust the float level accordingly

is this the right plan?....

should i get a larger or smaller jet? .8mm or .6mm?
also it seems lumpy on acceleration. shouldn't it be smooth?
will this be fixed when i get the mix right?

thanks for any help.

jim
 

crassius

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2012
4,032
158
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USA
not really the right plan

after weening it off the 16:1 break-in mix, one still has 2 or 3 hundred miles to go before the rings get a good seat - it will stay rich until they seat

once that is over, it may still be a bit rich, so then is the time to start tuning

if curious, one can pull the muffler to look at the rings and see if the black coating has worn off yet (they'll look like shiny steel once the coating is gone and they've seated)
 

jimnz

New Member
Jan 25, 2014
7
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new zealand
The site I brought it off states there's no run in 16:1 mix needed
Just go with 25:1

Either way the float needed adjusting to get it to run
So I should now just leave as is for 200 miles?

Other posters state to put in a new non Chinese plug in straight away
Others say the factory jet is to small at .7
A local site says the jet is too big if there's smoke and lack of power

Thnx
 

2door

Moderator
Staff member
Sep 15, 2008
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Littleton, Colorado
Jimnz,
First let me welcome you to the forum. We're glad you've found and joined us.

Crassius speaks the truth, as always, changing the float level isn't really the way to lean the fuel to air mix. In fact the times are rare when the float causes any problems unless it has leaked and sunk in the bowl. That might be one thing you'll want to check.
I also agree with him that you need to get some miles on the engine before worrying too much about performance/smoke. They are notoriously slow to break in and for the rings to seat well against the cylinder walls.

I'm not good with conversions so instead of kilometers I'll have to use miles. We usually suggest 200 to 300 miles before a Chinese 2 stroke can be considered to be broken in.
Break in procedures are as varied as the personalities of those who offer advice about it.
Just don't abuse the engine but I'm one of those who don't 'baby' them either.

Your altitude above sea level will play a part in the fuel to air mix. The closer to sea level you are the bigger your jet needs to be. Conversely, higher elevations require a smaller main jet.
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Tom
 

Theon

New Member
Jan 20, 2014
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My motors don't get much of a run in.
But I do notice they run a little better after a tank or so. I would never run them 16 to 1?
Mabee 30 to 1 of synthetic for the first tank and 40 to 1 after that.
Did you lift the needle or lift the clip on the needle (lowering needle) I find 2nd notch from top of needle usually right.
Standard Jet is sometimes a little rich, probably depends on the pipe/ port work, but .65 for a standard set up is usually good. It also depends on your terrain, keep it a little richer for hill climbing and longer life of motor. Leaner usually means faster but also hotter.
Adjusting the float level a little is good for idle mix adjust. Sometimes the main jet isn't tightened properly and will unscrew it self?
I find em much easier to tune with a less restrictive pipe, that gives a more audiable 4 stroking sound and you want it to 4 stroke a little when it's cold, and when you back off.
But yes get a better plug.
 

jimnz

New Member
Jan 25, 2014
7
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new zealand
thanks for the good vibes.


Main jet is tight,
I disassembled and reassembled the carb near the start as I thought grit may be the issue.
Im at sea level and prefer accel / hill climbs over top speed. So I guess a larger than factory jet could be a future step. I want to get a 56 spoke sprocket.

Oil was dripping from the pipe- the carb was overflowing – the plug was black and wet
now the oil has stopped- carbs good and plug is just carbon black.

Ive got 2 new nkg plugs to try and reassess the color
bpr6hs and b7hs- can u guys suggest which is more appropriate?

yes i tryed raising and lowering the needle clip - right to the top and to the bottom - no difference?
it wasnt until i lowered the float that i saw a difference. if it doesnt make any difference perhaps it was just coincidence and its corrected a bit due to putting a few miles in?
The clip is in the middle of the needle at the mo
if the new plug still shows black ill try raising the needle rather than adjusting the float again?

As for the run in, its now clear that 200+ mile is required before I look at performance.
Most here say theres not really much riding change while breaking in anyway. Dont baby it, dont run FT all the time. Easy.

Another thing ive noticed with the throttle:
the cable had an inch of play before engaging. I cut and re clamped to fix this and while in there, it seems the return spring in the top of the carb restricts the length the cylinder can travel – is this normal?
I cut a portion of the spring off to extent the throttle when fully open.
 

Theon

New Member
Jan 20, 2014
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Plug should be chocolate and stick to the 7 , hotter plug means hotter motor.
Some motors take longer for the rings to wear in, I always strip a motor before running it, sometimes the rings don't 'look right' in the bore ( put them in the barrel without the piston and check for 'light' between ring and bore, and check gap. If not good, throw away, a new set is $5. Throw away the Chinese 6202 Bearings while your in there, a new set of 4 might cost $30. If you want it to fly, check the Squish make sure you have max compression, and adjust to .7 - 1mm, Clean up the transfer ports!, and match port the exhaust (this makes a huge difference to a standard pipe).Try tuning the motor with the bottom off the exhaust, and no air filter, then put them back on one at a time and see the difference.
 
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maniac57

Old, Fat, and still faster than you
Oct 8, 2011
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memphis Tn
HT motors need at least 3-400 miles to be fully broken in. Tuning before break in is a waste of time as the engine is still not consistent. I run 40;1 in all my engines from day one and break it in by riding normally.
Wait till you run 3 or 4 tanks of fuel through it before trying to tune.
 

Theon

New Member
Jan 20, 2014
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I don't mean t be argumentative, and I'm sure others here have far more experience in these things than me. If my motors won't tune within an hour or so run time, I strip it down and find out why.
I havn't done 300 miles on any of my 3 Ht motors, nor any of my pocket bike motors, If any of them had done 300 miles, I'd probably pull it down anyway just to see how things are looking in there. Sorry I find this 200 to 300 mile thing a mystery, it works or it don't?
But I have had to throw away a new set of rings! and a pile of 'new' Chinese 6202 bearings. I've had to replace brand new Mags, Twice, on 3 motors! I've also had to replace the clutch on two motors, Not even use one crank!, Totally change all ports on all motors an go through other teething issues, trying to find the carb that works best, ect. Not to mention remove foreign soil, woodchip and 'precious metals'.
But that's what you get shopping on E bay?
Two of my motors are reaching 9000 and plus after only a coupe of hours run. They may not go 2000 miles with out a rebuild? but do I care?
I want you all to look deep inside that little Two stroke of yours, and realize it's full potential.
I may be new to these Ht's but I've been a mechanic for over 25 years, and if it don't run right after a tank of gas I'd be looking for something wrong?
Hope I havn't offended.
 
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2door

Moderator
Staff member
Sep 15, 2008
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Littleton, Colorado
No offence taken.
We're simply saying what has been our experience with the Chinese 2 stroke engines in question. There is little doubt they will perform better as they accrue milage. New engines simply do not have the piston ring sealing capabilities of an engine that has run for a couple hundred miles. Hence, compression is better and overall performance is better. Personally I have a lot of experience with the Chinese 2 strokers and can tell you that they can't be compared with high quality European designs or quality Japenese engines. They are a breed unto themselves and require a degree of understanding and experience.
Break in procedures vary between owners and it has basically been proven that almost any method has been shown to be successful. Some say to baby the engine, some say run them hard from day one. Some, like me, say don't be too easy on them but don't abuse them either.
Either way, I wouldn't suggest to tear down an engine based on questionable performance before it has seen some milage. Especially I would not advise a new builder/owner with limited mechanical experience to open up an engine unless and until he/she has a firm grasp of what it takes to reassemble it correctly.

You must keep in mind that many of our members are not mechanics or have a mechanical background. Advising them to disassemble the engine in an attempt to "see how things are going" when they probably wouldn't recognise a problem anyway isn't really good advice.

No offence intended. Just stating an opinion.

Tom
 

Theon

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Jan 20, 2014
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I agree, how ever I was trying to point out that none of my motors were assembled correctly in china, and if you want a 'Good ' China girl you may have to work on it.
If you want 2000 miles of good performance out of her, get a 'built' motor, build it your self, or maybe get lucky.
Maybe you guys get better motors in the States than what we get here on E bay?
But I encourage those around me to learn.
Not say too hard, there is nothing hard about pulling these motors down, getting them back together and working right can take a bit of learning, but if your not up to it, get a better motor!
 

Theon

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Jan 20, 2014
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As an example, if a motor had a gut full of metal shavings and foreign soil, as 2 of mine did out of 3, wouldn't it be better to strip that motor and reassemble it, cleaning and lubricating things correctly, and 'checking over it' as you put it back together, than hoping that it helps bed the rings in?
Sorry but I feel for those that take on a Ht with little mechanical experience.
 

2door

Moderator
Staff member
Sep 15, 2008
16,302
175
63
Littleton, Colorado
As an example, if a motor had a gut full of metal shavings and foreign soil, as 2 of mine did out of 3, wouldn't it be better to strip that motor and reassemble it, cleaning and lubricating things correctly, and 'checking over it' as you put it back together, than hoping that it helps bed the rings in?
Sorry but I feel for those that take on a Ht with little mechanical experience.
Nevertheless, it only takes reading many of the posts from new builders to see that a large percentage of them are in fact lacking in mechanical experience.
To many of them motorizing a bicycle appears a simple task. They read the advertisements that tell them it can be accomplished in a couple of hours with simple hand tools and with no prior experience they feel that, "It's a bicycle. How difficult can it be?"

Those of us with a background in things mechanical will quickly see that building a successful and reliable motorized bicycle takes more than advertised.
My concern is that telling these same folks to begin by disassembling a new engine is in most cases a disservice that will result in them having more problems that they should have had.

I agree that they need to learn how to work on their engines and bikes but the odds are in their favor that they will not need to tear an engine apart initially. By and large the majority of engines are not contaminated with dirt, metal shavings, etc. but are in fact ready to run out of the box. I won't get into how many Chinese 2 stroke engines I've delt with over the years but all but one had no problems whatsoever internally or otherwise. I'm sorry your experience has been different.

I'll maintain my position that most new builders with new engines will be better off applying suggested break in procedures, use the proper oil/fuel mix and accrue some miles before worrying about performance issues. If at some point in the future they wish to become more proficient at engine tear downs and reassembly that will be to their advantage. I just don't like to see a new builder faced with more challenge that he/she needs.

Tom
 

jimnz

New Member
Jan 25, 2014
7
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0
new zealand
wow, a small can of worms.

i fully respect both opinions. half of me always want to get the best out of my equipment (car, paint sprayer, jetski... bike engine) shench im here asking questions.

the other half knows myself and taking on an engine rebuild will end in a box of parts.
i went into changing the power valves in a suzuki rgv when i was 18 and almost had the box of parts then
also time and paitents are there for this project

i just want to know my engine is running as close to "good" without too much effort.
the main problem i see is theres no gauge on how mine is running?
i dont have a benchmark? i dont know a 2stroke engine mech or a fellow Mbike user.
for all i know my engine may be running at peak.

thus being my delima. i can only guess. at that guess is its not quite right - run in or not

i feel the carb is the issue ( not fuel mix, engine build) really these are the main 3 possible issues i see.

after putting the new plud in and refueling at 30:1 today the perfomance is no better.
the plug now looks slightly lean, but its only 2-3 miles old so hard to tell

what im thinking is

heres my engine:
http://www.motrax.co.nz/55-heading-for-item-2.html

current carb:
http://www.cyclepromotors.co.nz/carburetor-standard/

possible carb upgrade:
http://www.motrax.co.nz/motrax-engine-kit-accessories/96-cns-carburettor-.html

as i think the issues the carb, do i get a replacement or upgrade the carb while im replacing?
ive read that just upgrading the carb wont do much, you need to do other mods then to to get the best from the new carb?

thnx

note to mods:
the links are just to illustrate, im miles from the us/europe so im not pushing any products.. just trying to get help..
 

Theon

New Member
Jan 20, 2014
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You must be getting the good ones,
the one motor that wasn't full of metal shavings, had to have the clutch basket replaced due to poor casting/ care of selection/ assembly,... At least they honored their 30 day warranty.
Another came with no grease on clutch mechanism or gears, and a crank that turns into a Masseuse above 6000 Rpm
The other came with a Bushed big end, and missing bearings from clutch basket.
2 had engine seals that had not been put in straight.
One had rings that would have taken 300 miles to bed in.
I had a Mag fail after an hour or so, a good couple of mile from home.
One set of cases had to be relieved so that the mag and magnet wouldn't hit.
...
 

Theon

New Member
Jan 20, 2014
1,440
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FNQ Australia
Bore and Stroke 40 x 38?
sounds like a 50cc to me?
45x 40 is my '70cc' which has been taken to 47mm bore.
47 x 40 is my rebuilt RockSolid motor
47 x 38 is my crap motor, GT5? weird piston and rod, unbalanced crank!
And I have the 'leftover' bushed crank, that I'm still deciding is even worth assembling a motor from.
 

jimnz

New Member
Jan 25, 2014
7
0
0
new zealand
your right 40x38 does indicate its a 48cc.
he has got the same for both 48 and 70 cc motors, ill call and ask .
im guessing its just poor text placement

any more valuable inputs on " where to from here"?
replacement carb?
be happy with what ive got?

thanks
 

Theon

New Member
Jan 20, 2014
1,440
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0
FNQ Australia
One of the things I've realized is timing makes a big difference, and as does all the different motor configurations 40x38, 45x40 47x 38 47x40, and then there's the GT5.
I bet there are even more possible timing locations! and no real way to vary the timing easily from stock, or even put a timing light on it.
A Compression tester is handy when working with these, a few spares to swap parts to isolate a problem is really good ( plug, Mag, Cdi, Carb.)
If it was me, I'd at least take the head off, measure piston so you know what you have.
I would then get a $2 Kids Protractor from where ever, and find TDC.
This is usually best achieved whilst doing a squish test with a piece of solder.
Set your protractor mounted under the Mag nut to 0 deg relative to an engine case bolt left 1/2 unscrewed, I could take a photo but .
And check your port timings, I'll probably get all sorts of coments if I tell you what your port timing should be, but It's not that hard to do. Inlet I belive should be as close to 60 deg BBDC as possible. Transfers can be anywhere between 115 to 125 deg before TDC, but usually close to 120 deg is better.
Exhaust can usualy be lifted a little, and widened I'd be aiming somewhere between 95 and 105 deg before TDC.
A little resurch will tell you which side of centre you want.
The transfer ports are YUK! A couple of Dremel Burs at $10 each and a Rotary Tool are all you need to make these flow better, And it ain't rocket science.
Again Match port the standard exhaust to the barrel, You will need the more expensive burs for that, slow hard work with a stone!This has made a big difference for me.
While you have Head and piston off you can also check that the Crank spins freely, and the seals have been put in straight. That's what I recommend.
 

jimnz

New Member
Jan 25, 2014
7
0
0
new zealand
Hello all who contributed to this thread,

im sorry to have lead you up “ the garden path”
but it turns out I had the carb cylinder upside down.

I know its a pure rookie mistake. I assure im internally beating myself up
its only due to the ambiguity of the internet that im telling you this and to possibly stop this happening to anyone else for more time than needed.

Please pass on this oversight should it arise again.

Thanks for the help.

jim