Dax KTM 50cc clone build

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davidbd

New Member
Dec 13, 2012
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Austin, TX
I'm working on a new build, using a KTMC 49cc motor. This is going into a very old Elgin 26" frame. It is a tight fit.

The motor mounts consist of two holes at the back of the aluminum case and one at the front. The holes appear to be tapered inside. I drilled them out with a 3/8" drill bit. Then, for the back mounts, I heated and bent a long 3/8" threaded rod to a 90 degree angle, then heated it again for the second bend, quickly pulled it through the hole and bent it again while it was hot. Hard to describe, but that made pretty good motor mounts.

I purchased an extra wide pedal crank on ebay from someone calling it a "Whizzer" crank, but I rather doubt it has anything to do with the original Whizzer company. This crank still doesn't fully clear the motor, but seems OK with the motor mounted high.

Getting a working muffler is a major engineering challenge. I purchased a pipe from Dax, chopped it up into sections and welded it back together in a way that would fit the bike. This is difficult and I am a lousy welder. It still has some tiny leaks, but I'm out of acetylene so it has been clamped in place. The exhaust is kind of a fiasco, but I'll make it work eventually.

The motor (engine) ships with an NGK plug, but the reach is obviously too short for the head. The plug is also too long. I got a shorty lawn mower plug that just barely fits.

The front sprocket is made for a 420 chain, but the rear sprocket is made for a 1/8" chain... So I ground down the front sprocket and put a 3/16" KMC 415 chain on there. Grinding it down took a while.

I purchased a rear rack gas tank (with rack) from Bikeberry. The tank is supposed to go beneath the rack, but it obviously won't fit my bike that way. I had to put the tank on top of the rack and then bend the rack mounting arms in several places to make it sit at a somewhat normal angle. The petcock is all the way in the back.

I am putting Sturmey Archer hubs on there with big internal brakes and using 13 gauge spokes. I managed to put a 5 speed rear hub on the bike and have cut the rear sprocket out to go around it. Looks like it will work..

I may be at this for a while.
 

davidbd

New Member
Dec 13, 2012
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Austin, TX
It's just one of those little E3 plugs from Autozone. This plug doesn't have a long enough reach either, but at least it fits in the frame. Now I'm waiting for some handlebars in the mail; the old ones didn't quite accommodate the throttle and brake levers. Then I should have all of the parts - knock on wood. The chain tensioner pulley is a little close to the exhaust so I'm thinking it's going to melt and I'll need the metal one.
- say, Bill, what did you do for an exhaust?
 

16v4nrbrgr

Active Member
Mar 17, 2012
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North Bay
I went to a motorcycle shop and bought the NGK BH8S and it works okay, I was going to try a HT length plug to try lowering the compression for an experiment but I doubt it would net any benefits other than reduced noise, also those threads at the end might get fried eventually.
 

Wild Bill

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Jan 29, 2013
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Camarillo So. Cal.
I went to a motorcycle shop and bought the NGK BH8S and it works okay, I was going to try a HT length plug to try lowering the compression for an experiment but I doubt it would net any benefits other than reduced noise, also those threads at the end might get fried eventually.
Im looking for a shorter plug on the external part to clear the top tube of my frame, I tried an auto parts store but they were too lazy to look in the book.
 

16v4nrbrgr

Active Member
Mar 17, 2012
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North Bay
If you find one, please let us know, because I could use the clearance there on my bike too. I was thinking you could shave down the plug seat on a mill to use a shorter plug and lower it, but I dunno how strong these thin pot metal aluminum heads are.
 

Wild Bill

New Member
Jan 29, 2013
478
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Camarillo So. Cal.
On the right side case(clutch side) theres an allen screw that has a copper washer under it and it isnt one of the screws that bolt the case down, take that screw out and fill with atf until oil comes out. Because the fill hole is right above that screw, oil will try to run out a little as you fill even before it is full make sure that after you stop pouring oil in that when you lean the bike to the right you see oil come out that hole to make sure its full. It doesnt hold much but make sure it is full.

And good luck!

Edit: It is a mini Adventure. But still make sure that oil comes out the fill level screw.
 
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davidbd

New Member
Dec 13, 2012
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Austin, TX
ATF level should be good now. Thanks, Bill!
I discovered that the standard throttle cable is actually too short for the clone carb, but that's fixed now too by screwing a shorter tube on top of the carb where the cable attaches.
The motor starts and runs. Low vibration; sounds nice; quick throttle response.

The clutch hardly seems to engage. It just barely pulls when revving it medium-high. Maybe it is fouled, out of adjustment or just needing to warm up an break in...
 

Wild Bill

New Member
Jan 29, 2013
478
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Camarillo So. Cal.
I did my first test run with the factory clutch settings just to see where it was set at. I am running a shifter setup so I need the clutch to grab at a very very low rpm and the first run it never seemed to lock up at all even though I was in a much lower gear than the engine was intended to run so it should have locked up very easily. If you are running a single speed you will want the clutch to lock up at a fairly high rpm so you are in the engines power band, you can ask one of the forum members named Headtrama what rpm his is set at.

Also if you are geared too high the clutch may never lock up, you may want to call Duayne at Dax and ask him what rear sprocket you want to start out with, I think its gonna be a pretty big one for a pretty low ratio.

You can also watch Headtramas video and listen to how high of an rpm they are set at. You have to fast forward a little past the start of the race since his engine loaded up at the start and it takes about a lap to blow it out. Its a very impressive come from behind ride Headtrama pulled off! God help me, I have to race against these guys in my first ever motobike race on June 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMPFryowmKY&feature=youtu.be
 
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breno

New Member
Aug 19, 2010
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Syd. OZ
you want'em t come in fully at about 8000rpm+.. you can have 1 of the shim stacks set 1 shim looser too if that makes sense.. helps ya at the lower rpm with just a little drag.
I just rotated to a dif. shoe the next time I opened it up.
Just make sure you seat that clutch back on fully.. i mean fully or you'll end up with the stoopid thing not gripping on the shaft properly.
oh yeh go a 56 tooth rear sproket.. 44thooth is too tall.
You'll probably play with the clutch bevelled washers a few times b4 you get whats right for you. Type of bike, setup and weight all impact how well it will get out of the hole.
I only had to peddle like 2-3times b4 I couldnt keep up with mine and it was away.

If you listen right at the start you can here the clutch engages right b4 it comes into band http://youtu.be/PAnG3HnWXys
If you wanna have abit more grunt thru the corners brake and accelerate at the same time then ease the brakes off on exit.. i didnt do that in this vid tho
http://youtu.be/_UViXYWzwGY this vid towards the end is showing how the clutch grabs at relatively lowish rpm 4000rpm to be exact but obviously its not fully engaged lol
 
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davidbd

New Member
Dec 13, 2012
17
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0
Austin, TX
Clutch woes...
I got a spring set for a mini adventure and put them on this morning.
First I had to make a puller... I used a short piece of bar stock and drilled 2 holes, 28mm apart, and big enough to put a pair of metric #5 bolts through them. Then drilled and tapped a center hole for a 5/16" bolt to drive the clutch loose. That worked. The clutch still didn't work after putting in the spring set, which was a little tricky itself. The key was to put a nut in the socket so it didn't go down much past the bolt head.
It still doesn't grab. I rev it up to an exceedingly high rpm while pedaling along, but nothing. It just doesn't grab. Neighbors probably love me.
there is a relatively large gap between the clutch surface and the surrounding ring. That looks wrong to me. The parts may be mis-matched or maybe the bolts holding the shoes are too short. It's frustrating. I am considering getting a complete set, clutch and ring, but that seems expensive and wasteful...
 

dmb

Active Member
Dec 4, 2010
1,354
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lakewood ca
dont be afraid to take washers out if you believe the shoes are not expanding enough. easyrider and goatherder have lots of posts on the 3 shoe but have moved on to the tomar $$$$$$$. the trick is to set the shoes as close to the drum as you can, then tight enough washers to engage at 8000 rpm it will take lots of try's but you have to read up to learn from them. wild bill used a shifter kit that worked at the race and i never thought would work but it did so i dont know what to say about that. dennis
 
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davidbd

New Member
Dec 13, 2012
17
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0
Austin, TX
The springs are apparently too stiff, and the shoes need to be shimmed out closer to the basket. I suppose it won't hurt to jack around with it for a while. Thanks for telling me about the Tomar. That is a lot of $$$, but better than some of the prices I've seen on a genuine KTM setup.
 

davidbd

New Member
Dec 13, 2012
17
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0
Austin, TX
I looked through some of your posts, but didn't find the "setup." Could you post a link or suggest a washer stack? Maybe it is worth another try or two before I get the Tomar, which frankly looks likely.

That's a nice looking exhaust, by the way. What holds the exhaust to the head? Is that a clamp of some sort?
 

16v4nrbrgr

Active Member
Mar 17, 2012
1,728
4
38
North Bay
Is in my chopper thread, basically I used the stock setup but shimmed the pins that hold the shoes out a little with some hardened washers. That way, they are closer to the drum, but not preloaded. The clutch has ben extremely progressive and the performance has only improved as I sort the engine running and the drum surface beds in.

I did goat herder's oil hole mod, which I think is worth doing to allow better oiling and an escape for trapped clutch dust in the stacks.

Make sure your gearing is right as well, I found that it will slip a lot if its bogged.
 
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davidbd

New Member
Dec 13, 2012
17
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0
Austin, TX
This clutch is not going to cut it. The shoulder bolts appear too short and the whole washer thing is nuts. I ordered a Tomar. It is a beautiful looking looking thing. Apparently you must get the installation kit because it is wider and the case must be widened with a special spacer. I hope the crank for the pedals will still fit.
 

dmb

Active Member
Dec 4, 2010
1,354
3
36
lakewood ca
no gripes on the tomar except the price and the oil aint cheep. funny, i used to buy a clutch for my peterbilt at about the same price. [twin disk]