Ebike Lite

cannonball2 · Aug 1, 2015

So starting another E build. My new philosophy is in order to build a new bike a previous build must be parted out. The aluminum framed full suspension Pie powered Diamond Back will be sacrificed for parts/room in the garage.

Am wanting the lightest build I can afford. Found an older Trek carbon frame at a good price. Its a soft tail(semi suspension). May remove the shock and replace with a carbon strut to save weight. Will be running Hookworms which ride better than a bike with suspension over most surfaces(at least on the Schwinn step thru, it rides better than the Diamond Back).

Will be(carefully) running a 36v 350w geared motor in the rear with a single speed. Will start at 48v with the idea of maybe ending up at 67v(4) 4s lipos) and a 72v controller I have. Don't know about the painfully small phase wires though. The controller is limited to 20amps. That would be 1340w from the 350w motor. That's 84v of cells in the tray in the pic(1680w!)Love the ability to easily change voltage. At current(pun) prices the 5 packs cost under $100.

Anyway heres the beginnings.

Lungcookie · Aug 4, 2015

I assumed you were doing a street bike, I forget that carbon is so prevalent in Mt. bike frames now.

You really should get yourself a Cycle Analyst 3 for this, you can set the throttle ramping so your gears don't turn to peanut butter.

I did a lite bike on the cheap, although the tire/wheels were $350, cough, just to pedal, no suspension 26lbs.

Would just ruin it if I motored it...

cannonball2 · Aug 4, 2015

Carbon Fiber?

You are right LC its time for a CA3. I have settled on the controller. Will run the old 48v Infinon that has spent most of its life handling 63v. Will series three 4s 5ah with one 3s 5ah for the 63v. This is a more compact set up than the 72v controller for this build. This controller is 20amp limited. That's 1260w. Not too bad. Have no clue what this will weigh, frame is right at 4lbs. Got to be my lightest Ebike ever though.

Still waiting on parts. The motor kit should be here this pm.

Lungcookie · Aug 4, 2015

That's aluminum frame.
http://bikeisland.com/cgi-bin/BKTK_STOR20.cgi?Action=Details&ProdID=2627

I just got back from the first 16s/67v ride, 30mph, these LiPo's are great.
Its cooking the 9fet control though, almost to fast for me but way better grunt to it.
Can limit speed and watts with the CA3 too.
I only have mine set at 16a limit right now.
Was getting over 1000w.

silverbear · Aug 4, 2015

Signing on for the adventure...

Question...
... I have an old generation Golden Motors pancake motor which originally came with a 36V controller and 3 12V lead acid batteries. I would like to run 48V. Is there any way I can use the 36V controller or do I need one designed for 48 volts? You guys seem to be running higher voltages than your controllers call for... no problem?
SB

Lungcookie · Aug 4, 2015

Speed controls have a max voltage, with a general usable range.
As long as you stay under the max v, it should be ok.. maybe run hotter.
Also the LVC would be wrong, if it has that feature.
Controls also have a max amp setting. watt/volt rated

I don't know what that GM motor is.
If you cook it (control) they are not that much, under $100.

cannonball2 · Aug 4, 2015

LC summed it up pretty well SB.

The controllers will handle reasonable over volting, but as LC said the low voltage cut will be wrong. If you run at least a voltmeter and cease operation when the packs lowest allowable voltage is reached then the jump from 36v to 48v is very doable. The voltage cut is determined by battery chemistry(type). I don't know what controller the GM system uses. A pic would be helpful. I have seen the motor and it looks very similar to the common 9C type.

Since I was upping the 24v system to 63v with the 48v controller I have been torturing the 24v controller with 48v not caring what happened to it. So far its hanging in there!

If you can open your controller do so and check the voltage on the caps, I bet they are 60v.

BTW LC I bought the CA3. Almost bought the V2.3 but it didn't have the throttle curve capability. Reminds me of setting up R/C helis. Looking forward to running it on this bike.

silverbear · Aug 4, 2015

Since I don't really know what I'm doing with e-bike stuff I'll probably start out with 36V. an when I'm ready to upgrade batteries get a controller appropriate for 48V. Thanks for the input. Now back to our regular programming...
SB

cannonball2 · Aug 6, 2015

Got the motor kit. This is my third kit from this vendor. All are excellent quality, include a handle bar LED control, and even a pedal assist system. All for $189 shipped in this case. Really the only components I will be using will be the actual wheel/motor and maybe the brake handles everything, else will come from my 9C 48v kit.

silverbear · Aug 6, 2015

Another question...
... I was just looking at 48v. controllers for a brushless motor, which is what mine is and there are some with "hall" and some without "hall". What does that mean? Are controllers specific to the type of battery being used? Right now I have lead acid, but expect eventually to shift over to lipo batteries. Can the same controller be used for both battery types? Are the chargers also type specific?
SB

cannonball2 · Aug 6, 2015

Hall refers to the motor having Hall sensors. Your motor will have 3 phase(motor) wires and if it has Halls it will have a plug with maybe 5 wires.

The controller doesn't care what battery is being used. The LVC is the important thing. Lipos in a 48v system will want an LVC of 42v@ 3.5v/cell. I believe most 48v controllers cut at this voltage.

The chargers are greatly different. I have however charged lipos with an SLA charger but you have to monitor the voltage and stop charging when the lipos reach 4.2v/cell. Also there is no cell balancing with this type charger. You really need a lipo specific charger.

In short you will need a 48v controller, 3) 4s packs(or combos making 12s) in series in what ever AH you want, and a charger capable of charging and balancing lipos. This may sound complicated but its not really.

cannonball2 · Aug 6, 2015

Here is a pic of the battery "pack" and the 48v controller. It is 3) 4s 5ah and 1) 3s 5ah in series for a total of 15s which will be 63v off the charger. It all fits easily on this 4" wide board which easily fits between the pedal cranks on the frames down tube. I may also fit the entire system in a set of saddle bags haven't finalized that yet.

I have two sets of these batteries which if the extra set is carried totals 10ah. Am really finding 5ah adequate for my usage.

Lungcookie · Aug 8, 2015

Thought I would bump your CA3 question over here.

Its fairly straight forward on the connections, I have been removing most of the extra plugs.

The CA3 is a great little device, I know you will like it.
The CA2.3 is mostly just a voltmeter/speedo/amp meter.

The one thing you will need is the shunt value of your speed control, in ohm's.

It might be a bit confusing at first but after you play with it for awhile its not bad at all.

Some CA3 wiki
https://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/Cycle_Analyst_-_v3

If you have any specific questions, fire away, I will try to help.

I have only been using around 3.5-4ah per ride.
I am using 10ah to avoid voltage drop under power.
Also in the dirt you are in the amps more, not like on pavement where you use amps to get to speed then the amps drop off as you get cruising

Keep getting an 'app crash' when I post on this website, what's up devs? too many adds?

cannonball2 · Aug 8, 2015

Thanks LC! My major question is the multi-plug on the end of the long wire to the controller. I am assuming the wires must be connected to the throttle and braking inputs at the controller? Heres a link on the wiring. Scroll to the cable hook up part. Trying to figure which wires go where.

Finding this link was pretty weird, just have changed to Windows 10. It had imported my favorites to the new Edge browser But this link was in the old Explorer browser. Took a while to figure it all out. Windows 10 is pretty cool. 7 SUCKED! http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html

Lungcookie · Aug 8, 2015

The CA3 plugs into the controller and over-rides the throttle/brakes.
So CA to control.
throttle to CA.
brakes to CA.

This what you mean?

Do your controllers have a CA plug? So they just plug right in.

Make sure you have the wheel off the ground when you are messing with it.
...you know that.

Here is some more reading for you too.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71636

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=70687

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964

Just thought I would add also that not all throttles are rated for 48v...

cannonball2 · Aug 10, 2015

I understand the hook up to the CA and the fact the CA hooks to the controller.
The standard type controller I am using does not plug in to the CA plug. Will have to sort out/identify the wiring so I can interface the two. In the link I posted it identifies(sort of) the wiring in the CA plug. Still not sure of it.

Will read the links. Thanks!

cannonball2 · Aug 10, 2015

Heck made it easy on myself and bought a Grin controller that is CA3 compatible. Its a 25amp/36/72v. Have to tone down the values a bit for the poor little 250w motor. Looks like a great controller for my 9C. I have such a modular pack now its easy to connect either an 18 or 19s for the higher voltages.

Great Reading BTW!

Lungcookie · Aug 10, 2015

That looks like a nice control...it is just a 6fet thought so it might get warm.
I like the built in power switch.

It would be cool if these had plugs in the case rather than wires sticking out.
Like on a PC power supply, there are the female plugs in the case so you can just use the wiring you need.
Copper bus bar and a real heat sink over the fets would be smart.
Instead of some extruded aluminum box shape with ridges.
Should have them shaped like a water bottle...hmmm.

This 9fet4110 I have was getting warm on 50v/12s...but it was in a bag.
It is getting cooked at 16s.
I just painted it black and zip-tied it to the saddle and post.

That last link is the place to go if you want to ask someone who actually knows something. Justin is the boss over at Grin and teklektic just started working for Grin too.

If you still want to try and sort out your old control, I can get you some close up pics of the inside of the CA and control. What wires go where.

...I will shut up now, looks like I may just be helping you spend money.

cannonball2 · Aug 12, 2015

I think we apply the electrons differently LC you are a full bore rider! My old 48v controller on 63v just gets warm(its in the air flow) but I generally ride conservatively and only jazz it occasionally.

Bits have trickled in but time has been limited. Got the Hookworms mounted and there is precious little clearance but there is some. Have settled on mounting the batteries/controller on the down tube in the breeze. Not stealthy, but functional and it displays all the raw electronic beauty. When I ride the Schwinn which is totally stealthy people never realize its an Ebike until you tell them. Even when they watch you ride up from quite a distance with out a single pedal stroke! Wont be any question with this bike.

The more I ride lipos the more I think they are ideal for Ebiking in the hands of experienced users. Nothing out there in common use currently comes close in power density/compactness. I have been using them since Kokams came out nearly 12yrs back with out issue. Just treat em with respect.

cannonball2 · Aug 14, 2015

This is what I have so far. Still waiting on the BB, tensioner, and small parts. So it goes with a frame up build.
Its very light as is. Will gain a few pounds to completion, but will be the lightest motored bike I will have built.
Am looking for a riding position similar to a dirt bike, upright with high handle bars. Will leave the steering stem long until I get the bars set to my liking. The bearings will be set using a 1 1/8 lock collar so the bars will be free to slide up or down the stem. Will treat the frame to a coat of flat black and leave the fork in its raw carbon beauty.

Ebike Lite

Well-Known Member

Attachments

New Member

Attachments

Well-Known Member

New Member

The Boy Who Never Grew Up

New Member

Well-Known Member

The Boy Who Never Grew Up

Well-Known Member

The Boy Who Never Grew Up

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Attachments

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Attachments