Regarding the sale & use of Honda enignes on bicycles
- Thread starter happyvalley
- Start date
Seriously - a major international corporation like Honda (the world's largest engine manufacturer) is not going to institute a significant change of policy regarding the end use of a product without an official statement and disclaimer, to preclude their usage on "two wheel bikes, bicycles, three wheel trikes or quads" by restricting the sale thereof by any and all retailers is not something done via just a phone call or personal correspondence by such an industry leader.
To even suggest such an action, that "they need only make a phone call" without documentation or official statement would infer a complete disregard for litigious consequences, which as it in itself is assumed to be the pretext for this alleged policy - nulls this theory completely in my view. Corporations are quite fond of their legalese after all.
Unless Honda's "new policy" is made public and in full and/or more than just the one comparatively insignificant third party retailer begins restricting or eliminating products due to said "policy" ...I would say it's very safe to assume this is relevant only to Staton Inc, for reasons undisclosed.
To even suggest such an action, that "they need only make a phone call" without documentation or official statement would infer a complete disregard for litigious consequences, which as it in itself is assumed to be the pretext for this alleged policy - nulls this theory completely in my view. Corporations are quite fond of their legalese after all.
Unless Honda's "new policy" is made public and in full and/or more than just the one comparatively insignificant third party retailer begins restricting or eliminating products due to said "policy" ...I would say it's very safe to assume this is relevant only to Staton Inc, for reasons undisclosed.
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I agree, a case can be made for them to say it's always been their policy. The idea that if some corporation gets a whiff of liability and is then going to make declarative statements that would jeopardize other segments of their business is naive
How do you figure, who's supposed to be scaring who????
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The following is MY pure speculation with knowledge based on previous observations and experiences concerning 2 stroke in frame engine kits. The word "scared" is only used as a relative term to the situation.
Vendor to Staton gets scared and tells Staton. Staton, concerned with good customer service passes info to his customers.
Customers get scared. They either buy up all engines that are available or look to another source for more. Alot of folks who wish to ride for years to come horde engines as spares due to the perceived notion that they will no longer be available in the near future, sold out and gone forever.
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Since Dagwood works for Honda as a engineer helping manufacturers adapt Honda motors to their products I would think that he is a good person to ask.
He will agree with BarelyAWake I'm sure.
Steve.
He will agree with BarelyAWake I'm sure.
Steve.
OK Gents, Heres the official word..as I have had the unfortunate task of informing our OEM customers of for several years.
"Due to the liabilities encountered, Honda will not approve the installation of one of our General purpose engines on equipment by an OEM for a recreational Go-kart, mini-bike, powered bicycle, scooter or similarly marketed device."
Now, understand this folks. There happened several years ago, and it was a policy decision , and this only applies to an OEM mfg. NOT and end user (at this point). The reason for this has already been suggested above, to give Honda attorneys in a court setting protection.
To understand this completely, and how it is enforced you must first understand a couple of things. 1st, as mentioned, Honda is the largest engine manufacturer in the world by volume, and has assets in the united states. The fact it is the largest makes us a target, and the fact that Honda has assets here makes it vulnerable to enforcement by US courts. Companies that have no assets in the USA are not vunerable, as US courts cannot enforce laws in..say , China. 2nd, This is not a "new" policy, but one that was implemented several years ago, after a series of court battles in which Honda was targeted for injuries resulting from go-kart and mini-bike accidents. Honda, who has a huge employ of attorneys, seldom looses a lawsuit..and I mean VERY seldom, but liability attorneys discovered that when a minor or Child is involved as the injured, that all they have to do is demand a jury trial and they will win..almost everytime, regardless of the circumstances. So..Honda decided to stop marketing their engines into an area where they cant win. This was the basis of the decision which evolved at the corporate level to include not ony go-karts and mini-bikes, but also motorized bikes and other products. We can call this expansion typical corporate thinking. The Math was undeniable unfortunately, because the sales of engines for prices that average less than 200 dollars which you make 10 to 15% profit on, is quickly upside down after but a few zillion dollar lawsuits are lost. On a personal note, in my territory, several long time supply relationships with OEMS, (and friends) was terminated.
AND lastly, as to the implementation of the policy you need to know that Honda will not supply engines to a OEM mfg without first the product undergoing what we call an "OEM warranty application test". This means that when an OEM calls up and asks for engines to power their product, there is more involved than simply, "How many do you want?" This test involves operateing the mfg's product at maximimum advertised output for a period of 1 hour with engine monitoring of several temps, vibration, and, according to the specific application, other parameters to make sure the engine will last in the enviroment it is subjected to. Then an overall observation of the installation to see if it is in accordance with the various regulations applicable from the several regulatory agencies in the USA. Everything from sheilding of the driveline to EPA fuel system regs to warning label requirements must be met, and a contract signed by the OEM that these standards will be observed in production. This completed "Warranty Application" is then sent thru several offices at AHM hq for approval..and one of them is the legal dept....and only after approval, will a supply of engines be established with the OEM customer. This is how the word came to us in the field..no longer will the legal dept approve applications of mini-bikes, go-karts, powered bikes or anything else that a kid might ride. IN a Nutshell...thats it..the above comments about Honda Hating the motorbike market and other various inuendos are completely without basis. I have been at the job for 18 years last oct, and I assure you, its the courts. We tried suppling engines into your market, but the courts made in impractial, and un-profitable.
I also might add, that so far, the courts have not decided that a MFg will be completely responsible for a retail purchaser who buys an engine and takes it home to install it on an application that Honda has not approved, so untill that happens..you can buy em at retail and use them, even tho it is not approved by Honda...but dont get into the biz of selling a whole bunch of them, or call yourself a MFg...cause if you do...and your appearance even looks like a mfg enough to make the legal dept at Honda think their exposure is getting high because of your volume, or even just your presence...or you will get the famous "Cease and Desist letter" from Honda's legal dept, and take my word for it..you dont want to mess with them. They are salaried..and once in a while it seems they have to find something to do.
"Due to the liabilities encountered, Honda will not approve the installation of one of our General purpose engines on equipment by an OEM for a recreational Go-kart, mini-bike, powered bicycle, scooter or similarly marketed device."
Now, understand this folks. There happened several years ago, and it was a policy decision , and this only applies to an OEM mfg. NOT and end user (at this point). The reason for this has already been suggested above, to give Honda attorneys in a court setting protection.
To understand this completely, and how it is enforced you must first understand a couple of things. 1st, as mentioned, Honda is the largest engine manufacturer in the world by volume, and has assets in the united states. The fact it is the largest makes us a target, and the fact that Honda has assets here makes it vulnerable to enforcement by US courts. Companies that have no assets in the USA are not vunerable, as US courts cannot enforce laws in..say , China. 2nd, This is not a "new" policy, but one that was implemented several years ago, after a series of court battles in which Honda was targeted for injuries resulting from go-kart and mini-bike accidents. Honda, who has a huge employ of attorneys, seldom looses a lawsuit..and I mean VERY seldom, but liability attorneys discovered that when a minor or Child is involved as the injured, that all they have to do is demand a jury trial and they will win..almost everytime, regardless of the circumstances. So..Honda decided to stop marketing their engines into an area where they cant win. This was the basis of the decision which evolved at the corporate level to include not ony go-karts and mini-bikes, but also motorized bikes and other products. We can call this expansion typical corporate thinking. The Math was undeniable unfortunately, because the sales of engines for prices that average less than 200 dollars which you make 10 to 15% profit on, is quickly upside down after but a few zillion dollar lawsuits are lost. On a personal note, in my territory, several long time supply relationships with OEMS, (and friends) was terminated.
AND lastly, as to the implementation of the policy you need to know that Honda will not supply engines to a OEM mfg without first the product undergoing what we call an "OEM warranty application test". This means that when an OEM calls up and asks for engines to power their product, there is more involved than simply, "How many do you want?" This test involves operateing the mfg's product at maximimum advertised output for a period of 1 hour with engine monitoring of several temps, vibration, and, according to the specific application, other parameters to make sure the engine will last in the enviroment it is subjected to. Then an overall observation of the installation to see if it is in accordance with the various regulations applicable from the several regulatory agencies in the USA. Everything from sheilding of the driveline to EPA fuel system regs to warning label requirements must be met, and a contract signed by the OEM that these standards will be observed in production. This completed "Warranty Application" is then sent thru several offices at AHM hq for approval..and one of them is the legal dept....and only after approval, will a supply of engines be established with the OEM customer. This is how the word came to us in the field..no longer will the legal dept approve applications of mini-bikes, go-karts, powered bikes or anything else that a kid might ride. IN a Nutshell...thats it..the above comments about Honda Hating the motorbike market and other various inuendos are completely without basis. I have been at the job for 18 years last oct, and I assure you, its the courts. We tried suppling engines into your market, but the courts made in impractial, and un-profitable.
I also might add, that so far, the courts have not decided that a MFg will be completely responsible for a retail purchaser who buys an engine and takes it home to install it on an application that Honda has not approved, so untill that happens..you can buy em at retail and use them, even tho it is not approved by Honda...but dont get into the biz of selling a whole bunch of them, or call yourself a MFg...cause if you do...and your appearance even looks like a mfg enough to make the legal dept at Honda think their exposure is getting high because of your volume, or even just your presence...or you will get the famous "Cease and Desist letter" from Honda's legal dept, and take my word for it..you dont want to mess with them. They are salaried..and once in a while it seems they have to find something to do.
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Fully understood, Dagwood.
Corporate CYA tactics; and in this new world of the "eager to sue and get rich" mindset of the general public, I cannot find fault in Honda one little bit for protecting themselves.
Corporate CYA tactics; and in this new world of the "eager to sue and get rich" mindset of the general public, I cannot find fault in Honda one little bit for protecting themselves.
Hi. We are using ingenious speculation to logically understand why a dealer doesn't offer honda engines with their bicycle kits. This isn't good enough. There's something missing from the whole picture, and this industry is too small to have the tools to accurately determine what this is.
Fantastic Dagwood, Thank you.
What a shame though. I really do love their product and how Honda conducts them selves as a business. They really do under promise then over deliver.
I really do thank you for taking the time to shed light on this. Truly sorry it cost you friends. (been there, done that and it sucks)
Been developing a kit around the GX for a while. Not that I have any thing against the HS, just much prefer the Honda. Just a really great and reliable little power plant. Typing that, decided to continue any way.
LOL, outlaw motor biking. Think I will remove the sticker and etch out the etching.
Dan,
If a fella approachs the thought of using a Honda on a non-approved application, for re-sale purposes, here is a method in which you can avoid confrontation with the legal dept...usually..
Dont use the trademarked name "Honda" in your advertising, THIS is the number one thing to do!
and simply modify the engine a little. It would probably help if you removed the name from the engine also. But that is not always necessary. You see a modified engine gives the attorney's that margin of safety in a court setting they want. Picture this..(to borrow from GrayBeards journalistic methodism):
"Your Honor, The engine that was on this machine that became uncontrollable by the 13 year old operator and hit the school bus and exploded killing 53 kindergarten children, was modified by the company that built this machine, and not in the configuration that Honda supplies it to the market."
This does a couple things..it absolves Honda from any warranty issues on the engines..as modified engines of course are not warrantied...and from previous experience, the attorneys already know a court will likely not hold them responsible for accidents if the engines are modified outside normal parameters, actually moving mfg's liability responsibility to the modifying company. IT will NOT allow a mfg to buy them wholesale of course...and they will still have to be purchased on the secondary market as Honda wont supply them to an OEM thru regular the distribution chain, but it will usually give the necessary escape from liability to Honda. Untill that is..somewhere a liberal court establishes otherwise, which so far has not happened. Mods that void the warranty are of course any hot-rod parts...or changes in the general configuration..like the fuel system. Tank, carb, etc. I dont believe a change in the muffler..like to a pipe for instance would do it, as some Honda engines are supplied without the mufflers to the OEM. Now...I am speaking NOT as a representative of Honda..for I am not in the legal dept..and only telling you what I have seen in the past. Modified engines are not "chased down" by the legal eagles. (or as we call them "The sales prevention team")
HOWEVER...begining in 2012...all equipment powered by gasoline engine sold in the USA MUST have 2 emission labels attached as mandated by law..both exhaust AND evaporative labels. And written into the new law is the verbage.."ANY individual who modifies an EPA approved engine outside the parameters of this act, shall be in violation and subject to the penalties prescribed"
tecnically, even changing out a gas cap for a different one, even by the end user, will be against the law.
But then....that could be a whole new thread/subject...
If a fella approachs the thought of using a Honda on a non-approved application, for re-sale purposes, here is a method in which you can avoid confrontation with the legal dept...usually..
Dont use the trademarked name "Honda" in your advertising, THIS is the number one thing to do!
and simply modify the engine a little. It would probably help if you removed the name from the engine also. But that is not always necessary. You see a modified engine gives the attorney's that margin of safety in a court setting they want. Picture this..(to borrow from GrayBeards journalistic methodism):
"Your Honor, The engine that was on this machine that became uncontrollable by the 13 year old operator and hit the school bus and exploded killing 53 kindergarten children, was modified by the company that built this machine, and not in the configuration that Honda supplies it to the market."
This does a couple things..it absolves Honda from any warranty issues on the engines..as modified engines of course are not warrantied...and from previous experience, the attorneys already know a court will likely not hold them responsible for accidents if the engines are modified outside normal parameters, actually moving mfg's liability responsibility to the modifying company. IT will NOT allow a mfg to buy them wholesale of course...and they will still have to be purchased on the secondary market as Honda wont supply them to an OEM thru regular the distribution chain, but it will usually give the necessary escape from liability to Honda. Untill that is..somewhere a liberal court establishes otherwise, which so far has not happened. Mods that void the warranty are of course any hot-rod parts...or changes in the general configuration..like the fuel system. Tank, carb, etc. I dont believe a change in the muffler..like to a pipe for instance would do it, as some Honda engines are supplied without the mufflers to the OEM. Now...I am speaking NOT as a representative of Honda..for I am not in the legal dept..and only telling you what I have seen in the past. Modified engines are not "chased down" by the legal eagles. (or as we call them "The sales prevention team")
HOWEVER...begining in 2012...all equipment powered by gasoline engine sold in the USA MUST have 2 emission labels attached as mandated by law..both exhaust AND evaporative labels. And written into the new law is the verbage.."ANY individual who modifies an EPA approved engine outside the parameters of this act, shall be in violation and subject to the penalties prescribed"
tecnically, even changing out a gas cap for a different one, even by the end user, will be against the law.
But then....that could be a whole new thread/subject...
"The sales prevention team" LOL, good one.
Came home and was gonna ask you about all that. I really do thank you for taking the time Dagwood. Answered my questions before I could ask.
As a huge fan of Honda, I can't blame them a bit. Was on the phone with manufacturer of parts we use on MBs. He told me a story of how a kid broke into a garage, stole a gokart and broke his own neck on a telephone pole guy-wire. The following law suit went to the plaintiff as even though the garage was locked, the gokart was not locked up to any thing. A jury is just gonna feel for folks who lost a loved one.
"Or
As the famous remark by the plotter of treachery in Shakespeare's King Henry VI shows - "The first thing we must do is kill all the lawyers," - the surest way to chaos and tyranny even then was to remove the guardians of independent thinking."
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" - it's a lawyer joke
So I dunno
Came home and was gonna ask you about all that. I really do thank you for taking the time Dagwood. Answered my questions before I could ask.
As a huge fan of Honda, I can't blame them a bit. Was on the phone with manufacturer of parts we use on MBs. He told me a story of how a kid broke into a garage, stole a gokart and broke his own neck on a telephone pole guy-wire. The following law suit went to the plaintiff as even though the garage was locked, the gokart was not locked up to any thing. A jury is just gonna feel for folks who lost a loved one.
"Or
As the famous remark by the plotter of treachery in Shakespeare's King Henry VI shows - "The first thing we must do is kill all the lawyers," - the surest way to chaos and tyranny even then was to remove the guardians of independent thinking."
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" - it's a lawyer joke
So I dunno
