Sportsman Electraflyer
- Thread starter sportscarpat
- Start date
Thanks for all the input, guys.
Doug, your extensive knowledge in electric bikes is very valuable. I certainly have never looked at this build as a pedal assist. To me the electric motor is just another way to power my existing bikes in the fashion I ride them now, like small displacement motorcycles. I built the battery box around a 72v battery and even the base plate and width of tank will accomodate this battery in one shot as the plate is still bigger than the battery. The cylinder diameter was designed around a 14 stack of batteries. The controller box can fit a controller large enough for the 72v batteries. This is certainly built around a worst case senario. I look at what people are using in the electric market, base my performance levels beyond that and try to get to the levels of 200cc gas engines. What I do see is there is no cheap way out. A 72v system will end up costing more than a pumped 212cc Predator or GX200 build and have less range and performance. A 52v system will be around HF79cc four stroke performance or a bit less. All that said I see other huge advantages for electric bikes. Mostly that I can sneek around under the radar by being quiet and of course I FINALLY have a nice big fat v-twin stuffed into a bike!
Doug, your extensive knowledge in electric bikes is very valuable. I certainly have never looked at this build as a pedal assist. To me the electric motor is just another way to power my existing bikes in the fashion I ride them now, like small displacement motorcycles. I built the battery box around a 72v battery and even the base plate and width of tank will accomodate this battery in one shot as the plate is still bigger than the battery. The cylinder diameter was designed around a 14 stack of batteries. The controller box can fit a controller large enough for the 72v batteries. This is certainly built around a worst case senario. I look at what people are using in the electric market, base my performance levels beyond that and try to get to the levels of 200cc gas engines. What I do see is there is no cheap way out. A 72v system will end up costing more than a pumped 212cc Predator or GX200 build and have less range and performance. A 52v system will be around HF79cc four stroke performance or a bit less. All that said I see other huge advantages for electric bikes. Mostly that I can sneek around under the radar by being quiet and of course I FINALLY have a nice big fat v-twin stuffed into a bike!
It would seem to me that if water doesn't get into the gas with the supplied gas cap water won't get into the charging port. Myself I would be happier being able to just turn off the gas cap and the charging port is there.
In Canada we are saddled with 500w and twenty miles an hour so 52V would be ample unless we needed to cover a great distance. Having 72V or more is the Holy Grail for electric bike riders. You just have to look at the Endless Sphere forum to see that. Unfortunately the speed limit is what it is and the time it takes to reach it is irrelevant. Is it worth spending thousands of dollars to get there faster than everyone else?
Because of my inability to walk very far and balance problems a sidecar or perhaps another tri car are necessary. Either way I would like to see the Sportsman Electrifier tied to the sidecar or tri car I have planned for the next build if it becomes available. No battery storage problems as I proved with the Monark and sidecar. Battery space can be designed into the build.
That of course is my take on this but I'm putting money away in case the Electaflyer does become available. A V twin that pulls away quietly? You would be answering question for hours the next time they saw you.
Steve.
In Canada we are saddled with 500w and twenty miles an hour so 52V would be ample unless we needed to cover a great distance. Having 72V or more is the Holy Grail for electric bike riders. You just have to look at the Endless Sphere forum to see that. Unfortunately the speed limit is what it is and the time it takes to reach it is irrelevant. Is it worth spending thousands of dollars to get there faster than everyone else?
Because of my inability to walk very far and balance problems a sidecar or perhaps another tri car are necessary. Either way I would like to see the Sportsman Electrifier tied to the sidecar or tri car I have planned for the next build if it becomes available. No battery storage problems as I proved with the Monark and sidecar. Battery space can be designed into the build.
That of course is my take on this but I'm putting money away in case the Electaflyer does become available. A V twin that pulls away quietly? You would be answering question for hours the next time they saw you.
Steve.
Dang! I'm lovin this build. I really like the idea of a "gas cap" to "fuel" the bike! As long as your not charging outside in the rain you'll be ok with one of these http://www.bungking.com/brass-filler-cap-with-tall-bung/ The O ring will keep the H2O out when in use. GO PAT GO!
Hi, All
Pat, I do think you are on the right track, and smart to be planning in the ability to 'go bigger'.
As far as the 'gas cap' issue, I respectfully disagree with the other posters. Yes, of course the 'cap' with an O-ring will keep water out while riding...but I stand by my recommendation to put the charging port anywhere but facing up.
It's a bit like saying NOBODY has EVER had water get into their gas tank with the cap on the top...obviously not true...but with liquid fuel you have no choice, and water in the gas is just an inconvenience, not a potential life threatening hazard!
If you think I am exaggerating, understand the difference between AC and DC electrical shocks to humans...AC being alternating, will shock you, then make you let go when the current reverses...DC will not. It is almost impossible to let go while being shocked with DC...and YES, 72V is enough to treat with great respect.
This is not just me being 'anal', this is standard industrial and electrical design process...to NEVER let water and electricity meet! You have to think of bizarre, worst case scenarios...plugged in, charging, inside the shed...roof starts to leak...water drips onto charging wire and runs down it...if the port faces UP, water may run straight into it...if it is on the side or bottom, the sag in the wire will probably act as a drip loop, preventing the water from entering the socket.
And, it is not just water...any small metallic object can fall straight into a battery port facing up, but is WAY less likely to do so if the port faces sideways or downwards. A small screw dropping into the charging port and shorting out your battery, could really ruin your day in a hurry.
Why do you think you NEVER see standard electrical outlets facing up, like, say, on your kitchen counter top?? Same reasons.
You are also correct Pat, that it will cost more to replicate 200CC (or ANY cc) performance with electric than it will with internal combustion. Yup, that's the way it is, for now at least, with ALL EVs.
Yes, 72V components clearly cost more than lower voltages, but IMO it isn't just the 'Holy Grail' of electric bikes, as one poster put it. It is the 'sweet spot'. Serious performance starts BEYOND 72V, but that is where the costs really start to go up. Costs are incremental up to 72V, and exponential beyond that. I also have spent a lot of time on 'Endless Sphere', and it is a fantastic resource. I have learned from experience though, that probably the majority of people there are using a regular pedal bike (or 500 watt e-bike) as their frame of reference when it comes to performance...comments like 'ridiculous torque', 'endless buckets of power', and 'tidal surge of acceleration' are used to describe machines that most motorcyclists would find completely underpowered and lame. All I can say, is read a bunch of reviews about the Stealth Bomber, then go and ride one. Not slamming the machine at all, but it is frequently referenced as the 'gold standard' of e-bikes, and personally, I was quite underwhelmed. To me, as a lifelong motorcyclist, e-bikes start to "feel like a small motorcycle" somewhere around 8000W and up. Again, to me, that is the rough threshold of the difference between 'it goes' and 'it's fun'. Your mileage may vary. Lighter weight folk may feel differently.
I mention the above in particular, because you (Pat) said you never visualized this machine as a 'pedal assist', but rather an alternative to a small displacement motorcycle.
Of course drastically reduced maintenance and fuel costs will only go so far...and only start to make up the cost difference when there will be a lot of mileage involved.
BUT, as you also pointed out, there are also HUGE advantages in terms of stealth, accessibility, reduced noise, zero emissions, reduced insurance and registration costs, and more. These advantages are not just 'environmental' or theoretical.
Where I live, it is a hilly area surrounded by acreages, forested areas, and lots and lots of bike paths. I am not in the middle of a big city, but it is just 'urbanized' enough that there is nowhere at all within an hours drive where I could operate ANY gas powered bike off-road, except possibly in my own backyard.
With my electric bike, I can go anywhere a bicycle can go...which is pretty much anywhere at all. The bike paths, the local skate / BMX park, all the roads, etc, etc. No registration costs. No insurance costs (although I am still looking into options with that), basically no maintenance beyond basic bicycle stuff, and about $0.20 worth of electricity to go about 40 miles. Plus, I get some exercise (depending how much I pedal, which is actually almost constantly).
All of the above, is a night and day difference. If I had an off-road small motorcycle of some kind, I would have to put it into a trailer and drive more than an hour to be able to use it. If I had a regular (unpowered) bicycle, the steep hills I live at the top of, would prevent me from riding it much because returning home would be a killer. Gas powered assist pedal bikes are not legal here (unless registered as a limited speed motorcycle), and attract WAY too much attention to use on bike paths, BMX parks, etc.
Another poster mentioned the 500 watt / 32km/h legal limit for power-assist e-bikes in Canada (where I also live), and YES, that is in effect, and IS a limitation...but here is my own perspective on that:
1. My bike has a switch (and programmable controller) that puts it in 'legal mode' by limiting its speed to no more than 32km/h. The other position (for off-road, closed course use only, heheh) is 'unlimited'. In practice I never use this switch, all that is really required is to behave responsibly, and when on bike paths, don't go faster than a regular bike could go. This way nobody gets agitated, nobody complains...so far, so good...PLUS, when I am riding on the road, if I choose to / need to, I can keep up with regular traffic, which is MUCH safer. Most of the time, 500 watts will not permit this.
2. I do understand and respect the legal limit, but I am 275lbs, and 500 watts is of course designed for an average sized human. 500 watts simply will NOT get me up the hills returning to my house, even with strenuous pedalling. If I tried, it would be so slow going, I would probably burn out the motor (as well as my own motor)... So I respect the speed limits, and leave it at that.
3. There is an avenue (at least here in BC) to register the bike as a 'limited speed motorcycle', which I may pursue some day. This would mean insurance and registration, and it would become fully legal...but then I would lose the ability to use in on bike paths, which is a huge part of the attraction for me. So, not sure I am going to go there, but it is an option.
4. This stuff is all brand new. None of the current laws have been tested in court (to my knowledge), and all are pretty vague...lots of gray areas. I accept I may be taking some risk, but in my judgement the risk is very small. Everyone needs to judge the situation where they live, for themselves.
It may have been the same poster who mentioned something about a sidecar. Cool idea, and yes, that would allow space for batteries...but seriously, 500 watts is not enough to haul any sidecar and human and bicycle, up anything more than the most gentle hill. It will barely keep a rig like that, going on the flats. I respectfully suggest a set up with a 'legal / non-legal' switch if there are any hills at all where you live, or it will just not be useful. A trike of some kind would probably be lighter, more stable, and easier to operate.
Phew! Hopefully all of the above is useful to somebody, and / or stimulates some good discussion
Cheers,
Doug
Pat, I do think you are on the right track, and smart to be planning in the ability to 'go bigger'.
As far as the 'gas cap' issue, I respectfully disagree with the other posters. Yes, of course the 'cap' with an O-ring will keep water out while riding...but I stand by my recommendation to put the charging port anywhere but facing up.
It's a bit like saying NOBODY has EVER had water get into their gas tank with the cap on the top...obviously not true...but with liquid fuel you have no choice, and water in the gas is just an inconvenience, not a potential life threatening hazard!
If you think I am exaggerating, understand the difference between AC and DC electrical shocks to humans...AC being alternating, will shock you, then make you let go when the current reverses...DC will not. It is almost impossible to let go while being shocked with DC...and YES, 72V is enough to treat with great respect.
This is not just me being 'anal', this is standard industrial and electrical design process...to NEVER let water and electricity meet! You have to think of bizarre, worst case scenarios...plugged in, charging, inside the shed...roof starts to leak...water drips onto charging wire and runs down it...if the port faces UP, water may run straight into it...if it is on the side or bottom, the sag in the wire will probably act as a drip loop, preventing the water from entering the socket.
And, it is not just water...any small metallic object can fall straight into a battery port facing up, but is WAY less likely to do so if the port faces sideways or downwards. A small screw dropping into the charging port and shorting out your battery, could really ruin your day in a hurry.
Why do you think you NEVER see standard electrical outlets facing up, like, say, on your kitchen counter top?? Same reasons.
You are also correct Pat, that it will cost more to replicate 200CC (or ANY cc) performance with electric than it will with internal combustion. Yup, that's the way it is, for now at least, with ALL EVs.
Yes, 72V components clearly cost more than lower voltages, but IMO it isn't just the 'Holy Grail' of electric bikes, as one poster put it. It is the 'sweet spot'. Serious performance starts BEYOND 72V, but that is where the costs really start to go up. Costs are incremental up to 72V, and exponential beyond that. I also have spent a lot of time on 'Endless Sphere', and it is a fantastic resource. I have learned from experience though, that probably the majority of people there are using a regular pedal bike (or 500 watt e-bike) as their frame of reference when it comes to performance...comments like 'ridiculous torque', 'endless buckets of power', and 'tidal surge of acceleration' are used to describe machines that most motorcyclists would find completely underpowered and lame. All I can say, is read a bunch of reviews about the Stealth Bomber, then go and ride one. Not slamming the machine at all, but it is frequently referenced as the 'gold standard' of e-bikes, and personally, I was quite underwhelmed. To me, as a lifelong motorcyclist, e-bikes start to "feel like a small motorcycle" somewhere around 8000W and up. Again, to me, that is the rough threshold of the difference between 'it goes' and 'it's fun'. Your mileage may vary. Lighter weight folk may feel differently.
I mention the above in particular, because you (Pat) said you never visualized this machine as a 'pedal assist', but rather an alternative to a small displacement motorcycle.
Of course drastically reduced maintenance and fuel costs will only go so far...and only start to make up the cost difference when there will be a lot of mileage involved.
BUT, as you also pointed out, there are also HUGE advantages in terms of stealth, accessibility, reduced noise, zero emissions, reduced insurance and registration costs, and more. These advantages are not just 'environmental' or theoretical.
Where I live, it is a hilly area surrounded by acreages, forested areas, and lots and lots of bike paths. I am not in the middle of a big city, but it is just 'urbanized' enough that there is nowhere at all within an hours drive where I could operate ANY gas powered bike off-road, except possibly in my own backyard.
With my electric bike, I can go anywhere a bicycle can go...which is pretty much anywhere at all. The bike paths, the local skate / BMX park, all the roads, etc, etc. No registration costs. No insurance costs (although I am still looking into options with that), basically no maintenance beyond basic bicycle stuff, and about $0.20 worth of electricity to go about 40 miles. Plus, I get some exercise (depending how much I pedal, which is actually almost constantly).
All of the above, is a night and day difference. If I had an off-road small motorcycle of some kind, I would have to put it into a trailer and drive more than an hour to be able to use it. If I had a regular (unpowered) bicycle, the steep hills I live at the top of, would prevent me from riding it much because returning home would be a killer. Gas powered assist pedal bikes are not legal here (unless registered as a limited speed motorcycle), and attract WAY too much attention to use on bike paths, BMX parks, etc.
Another poster mentioned the 500 watt / 32km/h legal limit for power-assist e-bikes in Canada (where I also live), and YES, that is in effect, and IS a limitation...but here is my own perspective on that:
1. My bike has a switch (and programmable controller) that puts it in 'legal mode' by limiting its speed to no more than 32km/h. The other position (for off-road, closed course use only, heheh) is 'unlimited'. In practice I never use this switch, all that is really required is to behave responsibly, and when on bike paths, don't go faster than a regular bike could go. This way nobody gets agitated, nobody complains...so far, so good...PLUS, when I am riding on the road, if I choose to / need to, I can keep up with regular traffic, which is MUCH safer. Most of the time, 500 watts will not permit this.
2. I do understand and respect the legal limit, but I am 275lbs, and 500 watts is of course designed for an average sized human. 500 watts simply will NOT get me up the hills returning to my house, even with strenuous pedalling. If I tried, it would be so slow going, I would probably burn out the motor (as well as my own motor)... So I respect the speed limits, and leave it at that.
3. There is an avenue (at least here in BC) to register the bike as a 'limited speed motorcycle', which I may pursue some day. This would mean insurance and registration, and it would become fully legal...but then I would lose the ability to use in on bike paths, which is a huge part of the attraction for me. So, not sure I am going to go there, but it is an option.
4. This stuff is all brand new. None of the current laws have been tested in court (to my knowledge), and all are pretty vague...lots of gray areas. I accept I may be taking some risk, but in my judgement the risk is very small. Everyone needs to judge the situation where they live, for themselves.
It may have been the same poster who mentioned something about a sidecar. Cool idea, and yes, that would allow space for batteries...but seriously, 500 watts is not enough to haul any sidecar and human and bicycle, up anything more than the most gentle hill. It will barely keep a rig like that, going on the flats. I respectfully suggest a set up with a 'legal / non-legal' switch if there are any hills at all where you live, or it will just not be useful. A trike of some kind would probably be lighter, more stable, and easier to operate.
Phew! Hopefully all of the above is useful to somebody, and / or stimulates some good discussion
Cheers,
Doug
Hi Guys,
I am really enjoying this build thread because it is way off base from what this section of the forum is accustomed to, which is gas powered vintage builds. I have ridden a few electric bikes, some fun, some kind of weird to me like the pedal assist bikes, and some that were quite impressive as far as the parking lot I rode them in. I have also spent some saddle time on the Polaris Empulse which is a true electric motorcyle that did not disappoint. I will certainly report my impressions of how my first electric bike build goes and no doubt use my "yard stick" based on my experience with internal cumbustion engines. I expect to be impressed with the torque, let down by the range, and feel the power will be around GC160 levels at 6 h.p. I also expect that I will accept it's weaknesses, and as Doug already knows, exploit it strengths. I'll sneak around in stealth mode and raise **** in the process.
I am really enjoying this build thread because it is way off base from what this section of the forum is accustomed to, which is gas powered vintage builds. I have ridden a few electric bikes, some fun, some kind of weird to me like the pedal assist bikes, and some that were quite impressive as far as the parking lot I rode them in. I have also spent some saddle time on the Polaris Empulse which is a true electric motorcyle that did not disappoint. I will certainly report my impressions of how my first electric bike build goes and no doubt use my "yard stick" based on my experience with internal cumbustion engines. I expect to be impressed with the torque, let down by the range, and feel the power will be around GC160 levels at 6 h.p. I also expect that I will accept it's weaknesses, and as Doug already knows, exploit it strengths. I'll sneak around in stealth mode and raise **** in the process.
Time to update this thread. I've been busy so not much progress till recently. I have added my electric motor and drive system to a flyer pedal bike I had in the shop so I can test the entire system out. Low option bike with truss forks, drum front brake and Strumey Archer 2 speed click back hub with my new sprocket adapter.
Sportsman Electraflyer by Pat Dolan, on Flickr
After placing on the ground and pedaling the bike I found it harder to pedal than planned due to the motor cogging effect of the magnets. I had expected this and will be adding a freewheel to the motor drive side. Just that and waiting on the battery. The battery will be 50.4 volts and 28.35ah. Amp hours are basically how much gas you have in the tank and my understanding 28.35ah is huge with electric bikes. Do not know what range this will give me but it should be quite good.
Sportsman Electraflyer by Pat Dolan, on Flickr
Sportsman Electraflyer by Pat Dolan, on FlickrAfter placing on the ground and pedaling the bike I found it harder to pedal than planned due to the motor cogging effect of the magnets. I had expected this and will be adding a freewheel to the motor drive side. Just that and waiting on the battery. The battery will be 50.4 volts and 28.35ah. Amp hours are basically how much gas you have in the tank and my understanding 28.35ah is huge with electric bikes. Do not know what range this will give me but it should be quite good.
Sportsman Electraflyer by Pat Dolan, on FlickrHi, Dan
The bike is truly looking beautiful, nice work!
Maxxis Hookworm tires are a good choice; DOT motorcycle rims and tires are even better when to comes to a solid handling feel, and reduced number of flats.
I am looking forward to hearing some riding impressions!
Cheers,
Doug
The bike is truly looking beautiful, nice work!
Maxxis Hookworm tires are a good choice; DOT motorcycle rims and tires are even better when to comes to a solid handling feel, and reduced number of flats.
I am looking forward to hearing some riding impressions!
Cheers,
Doug
That's the "Low Option' bike ?? HOLY CATS! To quote John Cleese in the Hungarian phrase book skit... MY NIPPLES EXPLODE WITH DELIGHT !!!
Couple subtle changes while I wait for the battery to be delivered. I changed out the Brooks saddle to something a bit more comfortable. I also finalized the gearing and this allowed me to better position the motor a little further back in the frame so the crank case centers in the frame loop. Little changes make a big difference. It's hard to tell but the electric motor is now wired back into the controller. Still needs the throttle, too. Now it's just a waiting game till the remaining parts arrive.
Electraflyer by Pat Dolan, on Flickr
Electraflyer by Pat Dolan, on Flickr
Electraflyer by Pat Dolan, on FlickrElectraflyer by Pat Dolan, on FlickrLooks awesome, Pat!
Best looking e-bike out there!
Can't wait to hear about range and performance, once you get to that point...
Doug
Best looking e-bike out there!
Can't wait to hear about range and performance, once you get to that point...
Doug
So I am finally to a point where I can give some riding impressions! My 52v 30Ah battery, which will be the standard one used in this bike, is still being manufactured so I am using a loaner to test the bike on the road. This battery is 52v but just 17.4Ah and has a 40 amp max.
First off it's weird turning a bike on instead of starting it up. Just turn the key "on" and it's ready to ride. I found that on the smooth floor of my shop I could spin the rear tire easily enough. The bike pulls nicely off the line, no pedaling necessary, and it can easily accelerate to full speed. It will run at 30 mph. The chassis handles the load just fine with no load issues whatsoever. Really, I know it can handle way more power. My understanding is this current battery has about 1/2 to 2/3rds the power of what the other battery will have. Is it a cool ride? I think so. Is it fast? Well, right now it's fast enough and has enough power to accelerate up the hill in front of my house. Certainly no pedaling required. I would say it pulls harder than a HF79cc four stroke but has less top speed. Next battery should run 45 mph. Where this bike really shines is it is so simple to operate and it's quite! You can sneak it around anywhere. It also seams lighter than a gas bike. I can certainly why electric bikes are so popular!
Here it is out in the real world.
Sportsman ElectraFlyer by Pat Dolan, on Flickr
Sportsman ElectraFlyer by Pat Dolan, on Flickr
First off it's weird turning a bike on instead of starting it up. Just turn the key "on" and it's ready to ride. I found that on the smooth floor of my shop I could spin the rear tire easily enough. The bike pulls nicely off the line, no pedaling necessary, and it can easily accelerate to full speed. It will run at 30 mph. The chassis handles the load just fine with no load issues whatsoever. Really, I know it can handle way more power. My understanding is this current battery has about 1/2 to 2/3rds the power of what the other battery will have. Is it a cool ride? I think so. Is it fast? Well, right now it's fast enough and has enough power to accelerate up the hill in front of my house. Certainly no pedaling required. I would say it pulls harder than a HF79cc four stroke but has less top speed. Next battery should run 45 mph. Where this bike really shines is it is so simple to operate and it's quite! You can sneak it around anywhere. It also seams lighter than a gas bike. I can certainly why electric bikes are so popular!
Here it is out in the real world.
Sportsman ElectraFlyer by Pat Dolan, on FlickrSportsman ElectraFlyer by Pat Dolan, on FlickrVideo is much more interesting. Here I give a run down of the basic operation.
Sportsman ElectraFlyer Video by Pat Dolan, on Flickr
Sportsman ElectraFlyer Video by Pat Dolan, on FlickrAnd riding the bike. Not sure how easy most electric bikes are to pedal but this one pedals nicely. The Sturmey Archer two speed kickback is a nice feature. I'll post more videos riding at higher speeds soon.
Sportsman ElectraFlyer Video by Pat Dolan, on Flickr
Sportsman ElectraFlyer Video by Pat Dolan, on Flickr
A 52v 30Ah battery will be the same speed as a 52v17.4Ah battery,
The higher Ah will get you more mileage.
You would have to increase the battery voltage to be more powerful.
Pat you're Electra has turned out beautifully and the ease with which you handturned the pedal lever was impressive and demonstrated to me that it was going to be a great bike to pedal.
Do you notice much braking effect from the motor? Rick C.
Do you notice much braking effect from the motor? Rick C.
I am more of a gas motor guy and my experience is lacking a bit with electric bikes. Volts do equal rpm and at 52 volts my motor should spin 3224 rpm regardless of Ah. With my gearing that would be 40 mph. If the motor can push a taller gear then I may see 45 mph. My controller is set up for my next battery which is a 60 amp battery. My motor/battery/controller supplier tells me my well used current 40 amp Nickel Mag Cobalt battery cannot flow enough current to my motor so the voltage is drawing down below 52v under load. He calls this "sag", which I am told is common with this type of battery. My next battery is a Lithium Ion using 18650 cells and is rated at 60 amps. He feels this battery will be able to better supply the large electric motor we are using and not draw down the voltage. If correct I should see a true 52 volts at the motor under full load and then 40 mph with my present gearing. Testing will tell. Part of coming to this determination is that on speed tests our system was shutting down on low voltage. It's a big learning curve for me, but I'll figure it out.
