FL

motorbiker said:

http://www.fpts.us/documents/Florida_Driver_Handbook.pdf

quote: ■Operators of mopeds must have the minimum of a Class E license. No motorcycle endorsement is required.

Click to expand...

Ok, this gets back to my arguement.

In the Florida driver handbook it says on page 4, you need a license if you drive a motor vehicle on public streets.

Motor Vehicle: Any self-propelled vehicle, including a motor vehicle combination, not operated upon rails or guide way, excluding vehicles
moved solely by human power, motorized wheelchairs, and motorized bicycles as defined in section 316.003, Florida Statutes.

Motorcycle: Any motor vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact
with the ground, but excluding a tractor or a moped.

2.3 - Who Needs One?
• If you live in Florida and want to drive a motor vehicle on public streets and highways.
• If you move to Florida and have a valid license from another state, you must get a Florida license within 30 days of becoming a resident.
You are considered a resident of Florida if you:
a. Enroll your children in public school, or
b. Register to vote, or
c. File for a homestead exemption, or
d. Accept employment, or
e. Reside in Florida for more than six consecutive months.





This definition of a moped is a laugh. There's no such vehicle on the market, except for a electric motor bicycle. I'm pretty sure whoever wrote this part of the law was copying from the ebike law making slight changes as needed. The problem is what works for an ebike doesn't work for a china girl style bike. You can ride an ebike off from a dead stop without peddling. It qualifies as self propelled. All motor vehicles are self propelled remember.

A china girl MB can't pass that test. It's not self propelled, and therefore not a moped, and not motor vehicle.

You can't ride a china girl off from a stop in the manner described below. Where they really shot themselves in the toockus, is when they specified not to exceed 50cc. That seals the deal. My 50 definitely can't take off on it's own. There's no way a prosecutor could claim it's self propelled.

(77) MOPED.—Any vehicle with pedals to permit propulsion by human power, having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels; with a motor rated not in excess of 2 brake horsepower and not capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed greater than 30 miles per hour on level ground; and with a power-drive system that functions directly or automatically without clutching or shifting gears by the operator after the drive system is engaged. If an internal combustion engine is used, the displacement may not exceed 50 cubic centimeters.

That's the defense I would try to mount for a no license ticket. No lawyer, they'd want hundreds to actually argue a case in front of a jury. Traffic court is set up for citizens to experience the judicial system by defending themselves without having a great deal at stake. The worst they can do is fine you. In Texas the jury gets to set the fine. They usually will fine you less than a judge will. In almost every case the state looses money no matter how much the fine. They aren't going to be too eagar to try this case.

If you should happen to lose, that's when you can decide to forget about it, or hire a shyster to appeal.

biknut said:

This definition of a moped is a laugh. There's no such vehicle on the market, except for a electric motor bicycle. I'm pretty sure whoever wrote this part of the law was copying from the ebike law making slight changes as needed. The problem is what works for an ebike doesn't work for a china girl style bike. You can ride an ebike off from a dead stop without peddling. It qualifies as self propelled. All motor vehicles are self propelled remember.

A china girl MB can't pass that test. It's not self propelled, and therefore not a moped, and not motor vehicle.

You can't ride a china girl off from a stop in the manner described below. Where they really shot themselves in the toockus, is when they specified not to exceed 50cc. That seals the deal. My 50 definitely can't take off on it's own. There's no way a prosecutor could claim it's self propelled.

(77) MOPED.—Any vehicle with pedals to permit propulsion by human power, having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels; with a motor rated not in excess of 2 brake horsepower and not capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed greater than 30 miles per hour on level ground; and with a power-drive system that functions directly or automatically without clutching or shifting gears by the operator after the drive system is engaged. If an internal combustion engine is used, the displacement may not exceed 50 cubic centimeters.

That's the defense I would try to mount for a no license ticket. No lawyer, they'd want hundreds to actually argue a case in front of a jury. Traffic court is set up for citizens to experience the judicial system by defending themselves without having a great deal at stake. The worst they can do is fine you. In Texas the jury gets to set the fine. They usually will fine you less than a judge will. In almost every case the state looses money no matter how much the fine. They aren't going to be too eagar to try this case.

If you should happen to lose, that's when you can decide to forget about it, or hire a shyster to appeal.

Click to expand...

There is no way a defendant could claim that it is not self propelled when he is riding down the road at 25mph without touching the pedals.
I see nowhere in the text that you emboldened that claims that the bike must be able to ride off from a stop without pedaling. What I do see is a word for word definition of what a China Girl does. Do you or do you not use the clutch on your's AFTER THE DRIVE SYSTEM IS ENGAGED? The clutch on every one I have ever seen simply disengages the drive system. If you go to court and try to argue on simplistic technicality that these are not mopeds you will lose, simple as that. Your better off arguing that you do not need a license for a moped, if you believe that or feel that you can make the court believe that you believe that

Also we are in Fla where the jury does not set the fine, the court does. And it cost a minimum of $500 to challenge a ticket if you lose. They started that 20 years ago when too many people were challenging tickets hoping the officer would not show and they would win by default, and winning by default

joabthebugman said:

There is no way a defendant could claim that it is not self propelled when he is riding down the road at 25mph without touching the pedals.
I see nowhere in the text that you emboldened that claims that the bike must be able to ride off from a stop without pedaling. What I do see is a word for word definition of what a China Girl does. Do you or do you not use the clutch on your's AFTER THE DRIVE SYSTEM IS ENGAGED? The clutch on every one I have ever seen simply disengages the drive system. If you go to court and try to argue on simplistic technicality that these are not mopeds you will lose, simple as that. Your better off arguing that you do not need a license for a moped, if you believe that or feel that you can make the court believe that you believe that

Also we are in Fla where the jury does not set the fine, the court does. And it cost a minimum of $500 to challenge a ticket if you lose. They started that 20 years ago when too many people were challenging tickets hoping the officer would not show and they would win by default, and winning by default

Click to expand...

You may not under stand it, but I seems clear to me. The law clearly says several times "all motor vehicles are self propelled", and it also says, you only need a license to ride a motor vehicle on the streets.

A china girl bike, especially a 50, cannot drive off from a dead stop on it's own power, therefore it fails the definition of self propelled.

All this talk in the statute about the drive system being this and that is legalese gobbledygook that means self propelled. When it talks about peddles that has no bearing on the drive system. It just means a goped cannot be a moped.

The B part of the law is the important part to us. The implication is you can engage the drive, and drive off under it's own power. To do otherwise wouldn't be considered functioning. The law says it has to be able to function, it can't. The law doesn't say anything about you have to peddle it to get it to function. They worded it the way they worded it to fool you into thinking it doesn't mean self propelled, because they already told us all motor vehicles are self propelled, and if it's not a motor vehicle you don't need a license. No matter how fast it goes, it you have to peddle it up to speed before you can engage the drive, that's not self propelled.

What they're describing is riding a electric motor bicycle. You engage the drive by turning on a switch, them you ride it off using it's power drive system. You can't do that with a china girl MB.


Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I have clearly demonstrated that the state has failed to show that my china girl motor bicycle fits the legal definition of a moped in the state of Florida. The defense rests it's case.



(77) MOPED.—Any vehicle with pedals to permit propulsion by human power, having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels; with a motor rated not in excess of 2 brake horsepower and not capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed greater than 30 miles per hour on level ground; and with a power-drive system that functions directly or automatically without clutching or shifting gears by the operator after the drive system is engaged. If an internal combustion engine is used, the displacement may not exceed 50 cubic centimeters.

I do understand it, I just don't subscribe to your particular rationalizations

In the first place a China Girl is perfectly capable of driving off from a dead stop under it's own power. I do it all the time with no trouble.
In the second place even if it did not that in no way disqualifies it as being self propelled, I guess that's what you don't understand. It is certainly something that you will not convince the court of

Your B part of the law is fairly irrelevant, especially since you CAN simply activate the drive system and drive off,. Again I do it all the time, all it takes is clutch and throttle control.
It doesn't matter what it takes to get the thing up to speed in order for the drive system to be engaged. It only matters that once that system is engaged the bike becomes self propelled.
The fact that it must be pedaled to get it to speed (which actually is not always necessary ) makes it a moped.

If you want to argue that a moped doesn't need a DL then go that route, but don't try to call these anything but self propelled mopeds and not expect to get laughed out of court

Well it seems that we are all going back and fourth making minimum progress with maximum effort. there are clearly two sides to this story and hopefully my petition will work to our favor. in the meantime this bickering is pointless. If we want the laws to change we need to work together instead of against each other then we should succeed. In the meantime i will try to get as many signatures as i can but I need your help.

First off debating is not bickering. Bikenut and I can wholeheartedly disagree without it being considered working against each other

In the second, and this is at the core of the debate, what does your petition seek to address?
Are you trying to establish that these are not Mopeds or are you trying to codify that DLs are not necessary for Mopeds?

If we want the laws to change first we must consider what it is we want to change.

I am simply trying to get the laws changed so that we can ride our mbs on public roads without fear of getting a ticket or arrested. If that means we have to get a dl or register it then I can live with that but the fact we cant even have a chance to register it is unfair and i want to prevent what happened to me to happen to anyone else

tbolt76 said:

Well it seems that we are all going back and fourth making minimum progress with maximum effort. there are clearly two sides to this story and hopefully my petition will work to our favor. in the meantime this bickering is pointless. If we want the laws to change we need to work together instead of against each other then we should succeed. In the meantime i will try to get as many signatures as i can but I need your help.

Click to expand...

Your approach is probably a good one for the long run, but it's not going to be fast enough to help you out for this ticket.

We have the exact same situation in Texas. If you call the police they will tell you, you can't legally ride a MB anywhere on the street, or sidewalk in Texas. Texas is actually a little stricter than Florida, because not only do you need a DL for a moped, you also have to register it. It's impossible to register a MB in Texas because there's no VIN# so that's like a catch 22.

Yet we ride our MBs all over the state without being hassled for the most part. How is this possible?

It's because some smart ass, probably a lawyer that rides, or jailhouse lawyer, figured out a weakness in the law, and that weakness is that in Texas, like Florida all motor vehicles are considered self propelled.

You can argue in court that a MB is not technically self propelled because you have to peddle it to get going, so therefore it's not a moped as the law is written. In order to get the Texas or Florida moped law to work for a MB and be iron clad, it would need wording to the effect that even if it's not self propelled it's still covered under the law anyway. If human power starts needing a license, then you'll need to start thinking about getting a license to walk.

The way this has played out in Texas is, we have a kind of mexican stand off. Sometimes a cop will give a MB rider a ticket. It's a good way for them to harass a too young rider off the street. It the ticket gets paid without a challenge, they keep your money, and the rider will probably be afraid to ride anymore. But if there's a court challenge, the prosecutor will dismiss the ticket before it gets to trial, because they apparently don't feel confidant about their chances of winning. Any good lawyer will tell you no court action is a sure thing. To loose would set precedent for the state.

Last year the contact officer in the Texas DPS motorcycle safety division, told me there's never been a court challenge over riding a MB in Texas. I believe this is why. Would you want to be known as the prosecutor that lost the trial that opened up the state to MBs?

I can't even hardly get a cop to look at me when I'm out riding my MB. That's kind of odd don't you think, since it's against the law?

How many people on this forum are legal residents of Florida? Is it enough to get a politician to formulate a bill to change the law? I don't think so. That takes a LOT of voters. But, good luck anyway!

Terry

Well not just florida im standing up for mb riders nationwide ill make more petitions as needed

In short reply to the question above...

It is very important to those of us in other states.
There is already stare decisis that while the individual states are welcome to make there own laws, there must be conformity amongst them, because the travelling public must know what to expect when passing from state to state.

Any circumstance otherwise would weaken 'the union of the several states'.

Equal opportunity to rich, or poor, has long been decided to be beneficial to one and all, as it makes our country stronger and keeps it healthy.
rc

I totally agree. My point is this:
if you go to your state rep. with 25 signatures all he/she will do is give you lip service. If you go with a list of 25k registered voters...."well, it looks like my constituents wants this". See what what I mean? It all comes down to re-elections. Never mind what is the right thing to do.
I retired from county government with 15 years as a department head and saw how things go on the county and state level.

The best thing that could happen, and it never will, would be if ALL the states called our bikes the same thing with the same rules and regulations. But it is really hard to get any 2 politicians to agree on the same thing as it is!

Terry

I most centainly agree with you on that I have 2 signatures so far i think thats a good start

tbolt76 said:

I most centainly agree with you on that I have 2 signatures so far i think thats a good start

Click to expand...

One place besides here that you might get a sympathetic ear, is from a motorcycle rights organization like ABATE. You might get a lot of signatures from them, and they know how the system works. It would probably help your cause more if you joined them.

Seeing as this is my first post here I doubt, everyone will take it seriously.

I use to work with state rep. Mark Pafford and could easily get him to hear our case but, Its has to be well defined on what we want. I will put forth the effort if enough people here do.

Personally, I believe the state would be more interested in safety concerns meaning, registration and DL would be required.

biknut said:

One place besides here that you might get a sympathetic ear, is from a motorcycle rights organization like ABATE. You might get a lot of signatures from them, and they know how the system works. It would probably help your cause more if you joined them.

Click to expand...

ABATE has an office in my town. they put on a bike ride through our down town.

we also have a bicycle ride. we are very 2 wheel friendly.


when it comes to the VIN thing, my neighbour who is a biker & was a used car guy gave me some advise.

he said when ever he build something to register, they told him to just weld on a plate with a made up VIN#.

i can try & see if i can hit up abate & my tax collector sometime this week.

being in a small town helps. because the ladies @ the tax place are super nice & helpful & don't have any lines so they don't rush you off.

decoherence said:

ABATE has an office in my town. they put on a bike ride through our down town.

we also have a bicycle ride. we are very 2 wheel friendly.


when it comes to the VIN thing, my neighbour who is a biker & was a used car guy gave me some advise.

he said when ever he build something to register, they told him to just weld on a plate with a made up VIN#.

i can try & see if i can hit up abate & my tax collector sometime this week.

being in a small town helps. because the ladies @ the tax place are super nice & helpful & don't have any lines so they don't rush you off.

Click to expand...

Usually when you have to register a moped, the state will have a list of recognized brands. If it's not on the states list, they won't let you register it.

norrisdesigned said:

Seeing as this is my first post here I doubt, everyone will take it seriously.

I use to work with state rep. Mark Pafford and could easily get him to hear our case but, Its has to be well defined on what we want. I will put forth the effort if enough people here do.

Personally, I believe the state would be more interested in safety concerns meaning, registration and DL would be required.

Click to expand...

I think the best approach would be to impress upon them right from the start that a motor bicycle is a notch below a moped because they're so little and scrawny. Just telling the truth about them should suffice.

tbolt76 said:

I am simply trying to get the laws changed so that we can ride our mbs on public roads without fear of getting a ticket or arrested. If that means we have to get a dl or register it then I can live with that but the fact we cant even have a chance to register it is unfair and i want to prevent what happened to me to happen to anyone else

Click to expand...

But that is not true.. They can be registered as home built mopeds in any county in the state. Members here have already done it. It is perfectly legal to build a motor vehicle or moped and have it registered in Fla. it's done all them time

There needs to be a national organization of small 2cycle and 4 cycle bikes of any and all types. Then settle on a name for our bikes. Myself, I don't think we should be grouped within what is generally recognized as a moped. Most people picture this miniature motorcycle. Our bikes don't look like that.

norrisdesigned has graciously offered his assistance in contacting a Florida state representative. We would be foolish not to accept his offer. As he said though, we have to get our ducts in a row, so to speak. Exactly what it is we want the state to do. How would it be done?

In my own case I have a motor with no ID plate, I have no bill of sale, the bike has no bill of sale saying that it is mine. I can't prove anything. That could cause me problems.

Terry