Mongo, 48v 1000w 'Magic Pie' hub on a Mongoose 'Snarl'

BarelyAWake · May 12, 2012

POPS said:
Cheers Barely

Really good job bro.
Great build. Can't wait to see more vid.
You must be haveing a blast...

Sorry Barely if I jacked your thread a bit but I thought you
guys might like to see it...

Thanks POPS it is a blast to ride, but more vids are going to hafta wait a while as Mongo is hangin' in the shop w/o a wheelset, still waiting on the new rims to be laced up... should be good to go again come Monday or Tuesday *shrug*

...and no worries, I've never had a problem w/folks sharing good info - can't even call it "jacking" lol

Mike B said:
Ordered up the Ping 48V, 15 AH pack and (2) 20 x 1.95 Hookworms.

When all this stuff comes in I'll start the "Electric Revival" thread -

Looking forward to making some good use of this rather unique bike that's been hanging from the rafters in the garage for years now...

Nice! I'll admit I cringed a bit when I bought the same pack, but now that I'm using it I can't believe I ever had any second thoughts - I can't wait till I get back to testing it's range & reserve... I'm so gonna end up stranded somewhere heh

"rather unique" indeed, but I still say it looks made to be an ebike & an insanely comfortable one at that... what kind of brakes does it have? The MP wheel can take rim brakes, but ofc the hub is also made for disk...

Mike B · May 12, 2012

Yeah, I agree that this bike is about perfect for e-hub conversion, that's why I'm really jazzed about the project. Your report re the range and performance of the "Magic Pie" sealed it.

The bike has direct pull cantilevers and stops quickly.

How hard was it to install the cluster on the hub motor? I've never worked on clusters.

BarelyAWake · May 13, 2012

Your range & preformance are ofc going to differ slightly from mine, with 20" wheels & completely different bikes & riders - not to mention different environments (hills & whatnot)... but I suspect you'll get ever so slightly better overall preformance, so it doesn't matter lol

As the 'Pie has a rotor mount anyway, I'd be somewhat tempted to convert to disk... Cantilevers do work quite well in all the conditions you'd expect to use an ebike in, but with the miles I rack up they've proven somewhat frustrating. There's nothing wrong at all w/them for your application ofc, it's simply something that is a possibility if you've access to a welder (mount) & for just $35 bucks or so: Avid BB5 caliper & rotor

...but my disgruntlement w/rim brakes has very little correlation w/your application I'll admit - it's the hard Maine winter miles w/my two stroke that's cause me to seek other braking alternatives, that' not exactly a concern you need worry 'bout lol

"How hard was it to install the cluster on the hub motor? I've never worked on clusters."

I spun it on (by hand) and was done - it's as easy as that... unless you want it back off again in which case you'll need the cassette/freewheel tool - which may be slightly different than the one you can get at the local bike shop as the 'Pie's axle is larger: http://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Freewheel-Tool.html ...but the cassette itself is the same, so compatibility isn't an issue.

There is however a slight problem I encountered I should mention - my bike's rear derailleur hits the 'Pie's housing when I'm in it's last gear (7sp), scratching the 'Pie and ofc not working as it should. They include spacers to account for this, but when I installed one to try and resolve the issue, the axle's centering was thrown off & the wheel wobbled... so my "solution" was to remove the spacer and jus' not use that last gear at all...

That isn't a "fix" ofc, but as this bike is just a test platform, the 'Pie is going back on the taddy at some point and the taddy's derailleur doesn't hit - I figured it good 'nuff for me *shrug* but if ya don't wanna scratch the heck out of your new hub - you'll wanna keep a careful eye out for that when installing/testing it out.

*edit*
I had the thought I should prolly clarify what I meant with: "in all the conditions you'd expect to use an ebike in" to avoid concern...

I didn't mean weather conditions, even harsh ones... as Murphy would have it, no sooner than I got all of the 'Pie's wiring sorted out and everything working well - Maine's brief spat of unseasonably nice weather ended and it commenced raining, reverting back to the cold dreary blech it's known for this time of year. Sometimes just a misty drizzle, sometimes a torrential downpour, then a sunny day thrown in just to confound - the thermometer was all over the place in schizophrenic confusion from flirting with freezing to T shirt weather... if it wasn't pouring out.

Wincing at the irony, I continued testing the 'Pie regardless - I figured if anything this would prove the connections, even the suitability of an electric drive for my average, summertime needs. It didn't care at all in the slightest, aside from getting my shiny new stuff filthy there wasn't a single problem to be had even though everything but the batteries themselves were subject to near constant water immersion (batteries & BMS in panniers ofc).

The conditions I was inferring to are our road conditions in the winter, specifically the brutally corrosive mix of rock salt & calcium chloride. It's so bad I wouldn't put anything I valued in it, definitely not something as sensitive as electronics... it's jus' another thing you probably don't need to worry 'bout lol

Mike B · May 13, 2012

Thanks.

Going to leave the brakes alone. Frame is aluminum with nice paint. Whole bike is nice, hey it's a Giant -

Hub should be here Tuesday and the tires next week also. Battery won't be here for 3 weeks. I have a feeling I'm going to have lots of wire splicing to do as the bike is really long if I do nice routing along the frame and up to the bars. Have to keep the clean look of the thing.

Did your kit come with a cassette? I was thinking I would have to remove the one on the bike and install on the pie.

I'll know more on Tuesday.

motortriker · May 13, 2012

BarelyAWake said:
Your range & preformance are ofc going to differ slightly from mine, with 20" wheels & completely different bikes & riders - not to mention different environments (hills & whatnot)... but I suspect you'll get ever so slightly better overall preformance, so it doesn't matter lol

As the 'Pie has a rotor mount anyway, I'd be somewhat tempted to convert to disk... Cantilevers do work quite well in all the conditions you'd expect to use an ebike in, but with the miles I rack up they've proven somewhat frustrating. There's nothing wrong at all w/them for your application ofc, it's simply something that is a possibility if you've access to a welder (mount) & for just $35 bucks or so: Avid BB5 caliper & rotor

...but my disgruntlement w/rim brakes has very little correlation w/your application I'll admit - it's the hard Maine winter miles w/my two stroke that's cause me to seek other braking alternatives, that' not exactly a concern you need worry 'bout lol

"How hard was it to install the cluster on the hub motor? I've never worked on clusters."

I spun it on (by hand) and was done - it's as easy as that... unless you want it back off again in which case you'll need the cassette/freewheel tool - which may be slightly different than the one you can get at the local bike shop as the 'Pie's axle is larger: http://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/Freewheel-Tool.html ...but the cassette itself is the same, so compatibility isn't an issue.

There is however a slight problem I encountered I should mention - my bike's rear derailleur hits the 'Pie's housing when I'm in it's last gear (7sp), scratching the 'Pie and ofc not working as it should. They include spacers to account for this, but when I installed one to try and resolve the issue, the axle's centering was thrown off & the wheel wobbled... so my "solution" was to remove the spacer and jus' not use that last gear at all...

That isn't a "fix" ofc, but as this bike is just a test platform, the 'Pie is going back on the taddy at some point and the taddy's derailleur doesn't hit - I figured it good 'nuff for me *shrug* but if ya don't wanna scratch the heck out of your new hub - you'll wanna keep a careful eye out for that when installing/testing it out.

*edit*
I had the thought I should prolly clarify what I meant with: "in all the conditions you'd expect to use an ebike in" to avoid concern...

I didn't mean weather conditions, even harsh ones... as Murphy would have it, no sooner than I got all of the 'Pie's wiring sorted out and everything working well - Maine's brief spat of unseasonably nice weather ended and it commenced raining, reverting back to the cold dreary blech it's known for this time of year. Sometimes just a misty drizzle, sometimes a torrential downpour, then a sunny day thrown in just to confound - the thermometer was all over the place in schizophrenic confusion from flirting with freezing to T shirt weather... if it wasn't pouring out.

Wincing at the irony, I continued testing the 'Pie regardless - I figured if anything this would prove the connections, even the suitability of an electric drive for my average, summertime needs. It didn't care at all in the slightest, aside from getting my shiny new stuff filthy there wasn't a single problem to be had even though everything but the batteries themselves were subject to near constant water immersion (batteries & BMS in panniers ofc).

The conditions I was inferring to are our road conditions in the winter, specifically the brutally corrosive mix of rock salt & calcium chloride. It's so bad I wouldn't put anything I valued in it, definitely not something as sensitive as electronics... it's jus' another thing you probably don't need to worry 'bout lol

Right ? That stuff destroys cars.

BarelyAWake · May 14, 2012

Mike B said:
Thanks.

Going to leave the brakes alone. Frame is aluminum with nice paint. Whole bike is nice, hey it's a Giant -

Hub should be here Tuesday and the tires next week also. Battery won't be here for 3 weeks. I have a feeling I'm going to have lots of wire splicing to do as the bike is really long if I do nice routing along the frame and up to the bars. Have to keep the clean look of the thing.

Did your kit come with a cassette? I was thinking I would have to remove the one on the bike and install on the pie.

I'll know more on Tuesday.

You actually may find yourself shortening the wiring as I ended up with a bundle of extra tucked in a pannier - I didn't cut it down as ofc this isn't the bike the hub is destined for. Unless they've changed things the wiring should be more than enough... except perhaps the main power lead, & that depends where you put the batteries, but that's just your typical 2 wire lead so it's easy enough.

Speaking of wiring, there's another "heads up" I just remembered that may save you some headache... There's a slot in the axle for the wiring to enter the hub & a circlip/C-clip to hold it there, the edges of the axle slot are razor sharp (no joke) and will chafe through the wiring in short order, even w/o riding the bike & just messing around w/the wheel. It's a pretty easy fix if you catch it before it damages the wiring tho - you don't even need to pull the hub's cover or anything.

You will prolly need circlip pliers however, as you'll need to remove the clip to bend the wires back so you can dremel/grind the sharp lip off the axle slot in the areas marked red below;

(not my pics)

(different angle)

Again, it's simple enough & you won't need to pull the covers off like in the pics, I also added a tiny cable tie & flipped the circlip around to retain the wiring better w/mine

My kit came with a cassette, a Shimano 6sp... but if for some reason the 20" doesn't or they've changed with the MP3 (mine is the MP2, both are still available)... you might want to consider just getting a new one as even with the tool, they get cranked on there (literally lol) & a new one is only a coupla bucks: http://www.amazon.com/Shimano-MF-TZ20-Tourney-Freewheel-14-28T/dp/B001G0X2DA $7.55

Mike B · May 14, 2012

Cool. Those are cheap -

The Revive uses a Shimano Acera 8 speed, but 5 speeds would be enough.

Actually 3 would be enough for me.

silverbear · May 14, 2012

Nice thread, inspiring even! I have an older front wheel magic pie with a 36v. controller and heavy lead batteries that still worked last time I tried them. I've had in mind for some time to do a trike with the pancake motor up front and a HT engine in frame. Make a little box in back for the batteries. It would go on either a 52 ladies Schwinn or a 63 ladies American deluxe Schwinn. This build would pretty much be using what's already sitting around. Just need a rear axle.

I thought it would be nice to have the electric for starting out or on a bike trail or as a booster up steep hills, but most of the time run with the gas engine. Those lead acid batteries have a lot less range or longevity than yours, but I'd use 'em til they were dead dead dead. Maybe by then I could afford spiffy batteries like Barely's got.
SB

BarelyAWake · May 15, 2012

We've chatted a bit about my concerns regarding weight/drag & the overall effectiveness of a hybrid setup in my taddy thread... that while a stand alone electric setup works well, when you add up the weight of another motor and the limited capacity & weight of SLAs - both the motive systems end up working harder and the gains may be rendered so marginal as to not be worth the cumbersome complexity...

...but there may be hope yet lol & is another reason why I built Mongo - to test exactly that

Testing is still in the preliminary stages ofc, I've been busy just getting it to work, then basic range/speed stuff, threw on some lighting & then pulled it all apart to have a new wheelset built (which I'm still waiting on but should be ready today), but during that I did manage to do a little load testing, packing up a week's worth of bachelor chow (roughly 30lbs) and vrooming around a bit, including some hill climbing (is "vrooming" appropriate for a near silent ebike?)

Anyway 20-30lbs isn't very much of a test, it's the same or less than the SLAs I'd hafta use if I didn't have the LiFePO4 setup but to my surprise the additional weight had little perceivable effect - significantly less an impact on acceleration preformance than with my in-frame two strokes... and I figure this is solely due to an electric motor's admirable torque characteristics.

So it bodes well for the taddy's hybrid application, although ofc I still need to do more comprehensive testing & with at least twice the weight of just my munchie run, to approximately simulate the dead weight of not just the taddy's four stroke, but the rest of it as well like fuel, frame, suspension etc. and w/e might be loaded onto it.

I am still cautious however as that's only half the equation, as mentioned a small two stroke's acceleration is hampered more by additional load due to it's lack of torque and you've the handicaps of a lower voltage/wattage electric, the weight of SLAs & I'm assuming the two stroke is a direct drive single speed...

...but there's no harm in trying and one of the wonderful things about electric hubs is they're so easy to pull, even to swap out to another bike should that be wanted. It will definitely work that's for sure, the only question is if it's "worth it" and the only person qualified to answer that is the guy who built & rides the thing after all heh

I can't wait to see your creation silver, you do build such nice machines (^)

silverbear · May 15, 2012

Barely, Thanks for your kind words and your thoughts on the subject. How satisfactory it will be, I don't know. I'm looking at the day when I perhaps can no longer ride a two wheeler either due to Guillane Barre Syndrome, if it gets worse, or simply geezerdom. Think of this as more of a hybrid alternative to a wheelchair... ha! I might go with a larger driven sprocket in back since trikes aren't well know for speed cornering anyway. I would think about 25 on a straight away would be plenty for top speed and 15 to 20 for cruising. I have a Hercules moped fork for up front that should help it corner a little more safely. No, this won't be a speedster, for sure, just a fun project that might prove to be practical for an old guy down the line.

Your tadpole is the one I want to see on the road. Vroooom...
SB

fasteddy · May 16, 2012

Barely,
Your in depth report on the Magic Pie has been enlightening. I have been sitting here on the sidelines watching to see what you found and other than the iffy connectors it sure does sound like a decent motor.

I'm thinking of a motor for the velo that should be done this fall and the "Pie" seems to be the one. I've bounced back and forth between sedate driver and flat out rocketship. Then it's gone between add on electric motor like the Currie motor, Motortriker is using and a hub motor like yours. I'm afraid that I'm getting past the rocketship time of life.

I may have to go for a large amount of battery both for distance but even though I plan to make the velo as light as possible the fact is that it will be forced to haul 250 pound of pork chop over and above the velo's weight. That in it's self will negate any rocket ship I could build so a nice cruiser it will have to be.

I would certainly welcome any thought you have about it.

Steve.

Mike B · May 16, 2012

The 20" pie arrived today and looks pretty good. Yeah, I already have a slice in the wire from that sharp edge.

No freewheel, so I ordered up that one on amazon. Has thumb throttle, brake levers with switches, and some silly thing with the cruise control and a horn switch I guess.

And no instructions of any kind. Gotta love China stuff.

That wheel is a piece of work though, solid thick aluminum.

BarelyAWake · May 16, 2012

Silver - I think for your intended use & needs, the setup you're planning will work out quite well... tho you may find yourself just using the electric from time to time, the quiet - it's so addictive lol

fasteddy - thank you, but please bear in mind I'm still an ebike novice, the 'Pie is the only motor I know... once sorted it has turned out to be a good lil motor with lots of features, but there's a vast selection of hub drives to choose from and they've all got their quirks *shrug*

There's other, faster drives & higher quality ones - so many to choose from it's dizzying, but the things I've figured out is 48v 1000w is pretty much the way to go if you've any challenging terrain/hills & the batteries you choose may well be more important than what motor ya end up with heh

Mike B - That does look like a sweet wheel... it's all solid aluminum? Wow, defo not gonna hafta worry about truing it heh I'm so lookin' forward to hearing how it works out for you!

As you've no doubt discovered their forum is pretty much their instruction manual... but jus' to be sure - you'll wanna install all of the button controls whether you plan on using them or not, or even if you decide to replace the buttons with higher quality ones as they also provide an additional means of controller input should you experience faults.

Although it's all on their support forum, it is a bit buried so I've saved some stuff that may help folks...

first pic: errors and overrides
second pic: pin & plug ID
third pic: color codes, both sides of connectors
forth pic: external controller schematic (wiring to buttons is same/better pic)

...and I went to pick up my relaced wheels yesterday - can you guess which one wasn't ready yet? Ofc it's the hub drive lol, the tricky one I need

/waits

Mike B · May 16, 2012

Yeah, the wheel is a nice piece. Actually all the bits were good, certainly better quality than what comes with happy time motors. The brake levers with the switches are good quality parts, the thumb throttle with the battery capacity leds works smoothly and looks good. Yeah mine has those flimsy looking colored little connectors too

But that wheel is just amazing.

Yeah, I found the info in their forun too. That's where I saw that the pie is designed to accept 3 to 6 speed freewheels and I deceided to order the 6 as the one on the bike is an 8.

Also ordered a wider front wheel as the one on the bike is very narrow for the skinny 20x1.5 factory tires. Giant screwed the pooch on those tires, they are only rated for 40 psi. I have a feeling the bike is going to roll a lot easier with those Hookworms pumped to 60.

Yeah, this is going to be fun!

How do you like the regen braking?

paul · May 16, 2012

mike who did you order the hub and wheel from? that is awesome! i am getting ready to get a magic pie also. i was about ready to order till i saw your picture. i like! with our rodes i would be truing the wheel every time i turned around and the no spokes is great
thank you barelyawake. your posts have been informative and great for making a decision.

Mike B · May 16, 2012

It was some guy on ebay.

He has a website www.powertothee.com

All of the 20" pies have the solid alum wheel.

To tell the truth, I would order direct from China and make sure you get the "3" version.

BarelyAWake · May 17, 2012

Mike B - Despite my earlier suggestion that you should be sure to use all the included controls, I have ofc not done so myself lol... The Mongoose has the typical trigger shifters incorporated into the brake lever housings, which while I could modify them to have switches - I've chosen to not bother as the taddy is what the 'Pie is destined to go on & I figure it's just a matter of time.

Paul - Thanks man! While the 20" wheel Mike purchased is indeed awesome, no argument there - I thought I should mention that if you'd like a wheel larger than 20" there's little reason to worry about strength/constant tuning as the spokes on even the 26" are very short, making for a strong & rigid wheel... not as strong as that amazing solid chunk of machined aluminum perhaps, but still plenty strong.

Speaking of short spokes, apparently the ones I need for my new 26" rim to be laced to the 'Pie are 118mm (4.64 inches) - unusual enough that my wheel build has been delayed as new custom spokes are ordered.

Frustrating... yes, but this is not unexpected & it's solely because I'm vain enough to want a matching wheelset. The 26" 'Pie's stock rim is a decent deep V alloy double wall, so I brought this all on meself heh >.<

paul · May 17, 2012

thanks barely awake. i am planning on a inch tire which i beleive will be faster. still looking at batteries

george_n_texas · May 17, 2012

BA that looks nice just curious how much do you weigh? My e-bike didn't last 100 miles with my fat carcus LOL

Mike B · May 17, 2012

The inside dimension of the 20" wheel is 1.25"

Mongo, 48v 1000w 'Magic Pie' hub on a Mongoose 'Snarl'

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