I don't know how you guys do it

2door said:

As far as having patients with new builders, I have to hold my tongue often when I see, "I want to go fast" or "I need to keep up with traffic". My immediate inclination is to answer with a snide, "Buy a motorcycle". In fact, in some earlier days I did just that but in their wisdom a couple of members pointed out that, as Barley Awake said, I was stifling creativity.
Tom

Click to expand...

On balance I agree with most of what you said Tom, but frankly the bit about 'stifling creativity' is suspect in this context. It all too easily is abused and can end up being just a code phrase for attempting to exploit the loopholes and ride the coat tail of what we'd hope is a reasonable and legitimate mode of transport into something else, putting it all at risk.

IMO, if someone wants the performance of a small motorcycle they are at liberty to enjoy the un-stifled creativity of building a motorcycle to their hearts content.

Which is exactly why I split the point into two perspectives - building and utilization, which are admittedly just my personal opinions & experiences, as is the following.

We often have no way of knowing the full context, the story behind the reasons and the desire to build, it could be no more than the joy of creation, it could be destined to be no more than a race machine limited to track & trail use, just as easily as it could be someone indifferent to the law - laws that vary wildly from region to region BTW, from prohibited outright to completely unregulated. Would you claim to know the laws regarding motorized bicycles in regards to the entire planet? Did you even check the laws applicable to that individual before saying "buy a motorcycle" - or did you just see someone building something you don't like?

I understand, sympathize and even agree with your concern to an extent - but it's based on assumptions and very often personal preferences, ones I don't think we have the right to act on without query - at least asking about their intentions and local law if applicable before immediately jumping to conclusions. As for all we know it may be legal in their area, for their intended usage, they may well decide to register it as a homebuilt if their creation works well, use it off road or on closed tracks, or even just scrap it for parts after learning a lesson.

It's one thing to inquire into their intentions, advising and warning of your concerns - it's another entirely to simply assume that any and all fabricators that are building something that falls outside the parameters of what you consider legitimate are "putting it all at risk" and reply only with "buy a motorcycle" or a similarly dismissive comment. Your priorities may well be "a reasonable and legitimate mode of transport" - but what that entails is different for everyone, even it's "legitimacy" insofar as the law is concerned, and their priority may not be transport at all in any case but simply a toy, something to tinker with.

In the end, there is no right answer beyond their intended usage and their local law, both of which is their responsibility to conform to. If they should so choose to violate their local law, there will be consequences but as I see it - beyond inquiring and advising, that's between them and their local law enforcement.

Much ado has been made about the potential peril "irresponsible" individuals put us in, that we may all be at risk, that we may lose our privileges, that motorized bicycling itself is in danger. There may be some truth to this - but it in itself is an injustice that should be fought, far more serious an offense than any individual's action could ever be. If you operate a legal machine in a law abiding fashion you should have nothing to fear, if you are persecuted despite your legality due to the actions of others - fight it, do something about it that matters by reporting abusive law enforcement, lobbying to preserve your privilege, even attempting to expand it if it's unduly restrictive.

Making snide comments on a forum is easy enough, but does no one the slightest bit of good. It may well do far more harm than the legality of any build by creating the illusion of a problem well out of proportion to the issues we actually face. If you want to make a real difference - that simply isn't going to be effective, do you really think they would listen in any case? Why not assume some responsibility of your own? Petition for change, encourage awareness of the law - if there's a large enough number of illegal machines in your area that you fear for the legality of motorized bicycles, have you discussed this with the officers in your area? Have you even attempted to see if the difference is known by those that enforce the law - the ones that matter, the ones that might actually listen to a law abiding citizen's concerns? We already know the law breakers won't - so what's the point?

In fact from my experience on both the forum and as a commuter, I've found to my stunned surprise that it isn't actually the illegal builds, the general public, irresponsible riders or even the majority of law enforcement that's responsible for what animosity towards us there may be - in fact the only demographic I've ever encountered that has even the slightest complaint regarding motorized bicycles at all beyond the individual would be other bicyclists, motorized or otherwise - the ones that feel compelled to insist compliance to what they think of as a "legitimate" mode of transport, based only on their opinion, even regardless if it's permissible by law. Strangely - of all the vast diversity in motorized vehicles I've played with, motorized bicycles seem to be most prone to self condemnation. Aircraft, boats, cars, trucks, motorcycles, homebuilt, modified or otherwise - recreational use only or legal, registered machines, none are so prone towards fighting amongst themselves as we seem to be. When was the last time you felt compelled to reprimand that kid down the road - the one building a car that will never pass inspection out of fear of loosing your own privilege to have a car? When was the last time you told someone building a gokart to "buy a car" - even if they were ripping up and down the street?

So yes, we may be indeed our own worst enemy - but sadly it seems primarily bicyclists that deem any and all motorization to be sacrilege and those motorized bicyclists that condemn anyone that doesn't conform to their view, even aside from law.

As a rider I couldn't care less if your build is "legal" or not, that's between you and the law. As a staff member on this forum, I would suggest advising of safety concerns, inquiring into utilization and warning of legal repercussions if applicable, as a builder/fabricator - I wanna see what you've got for if it wasn't for those that would push the limits, we'd not have these things in the first place.

I mean srsly - put a motor on a bicycle? Are you insane?

I had hopes it was acceptable within site guidelines for anyone to own a proprietary opinion, and when using 'IMO' would be thus understood:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2door
As far as having patients with new builders, I have to hold my tongue often when I see, "I want to go fast" or "I need to keep up with traffic". My immediate inclination is to answer with a snide, "Buy a motorcycle". In fact, in some earlier days I did just that but in their wisdom a couple of members pointed out that, as Barley Awake said, I was stifling creativity.
Tom

Click to expand...

On balance I agree with most of what you said Tom, but frankly the bit about 'stifling creativity' is suspect in this context. It all too easily is abused and can end up being just a code phrase for attempting to exploit the loopholes and ride the coat tail of what we'd hope is a reasonable and legitimate mode of transport into something else, putting it all at risk.

IMO, if someone wants the performance of a small motorcycle they are at liberty to enjoy the un-stifled creativity of building a motorcycle to their hearts content.

Click to expand...

Worth noting is the actual reference to context, IE: "I want to go fast.... I need to keep up with traffic" scenario mentioned. I would hope that sufficient context to allow one to comment, one comment at a time, since "full context" is somewhat ambiguous and beyond immediate purview. If there is anything that might be referred to as "snide" there, I'd like to see it pointed out so I can add it to my understanding of the word.

We all are limited to our experience in some degree, however extensive or parochial it may be, the world is larger than oneself or limiting circle we might travel. If one concludes bicyclists are the main threat to MABs I don't really know what to say to that. It seems highly risible and not certainly not part of my experience. There are 60 million bicyclists of various levels of enthusiasm in the US and, since making random assumptions were brought up and made again widely in turn, it appears highly ambitious to know what all of them might be thinking. One thing for sure about that number though is much of it, like the nation in general, is an aging population and from my contacts, observations and acquaintances, a sizable segment are showing interest. I happen to think it well worth considering that for an aging demographic, a well conceived platform of assist, presented right, might be viewed as a favorable way to keep oneself out there and active and many more would be interested. At the very least, it might seem a tad myopic on a number of accounts to be dismissive of the whole of 60 million people who already swing a leg over a bicycle saddle.

At any rate, I take it as obvious that most don't need someone to point out there's a difference between not liking something and seeing where certain behavior can in fact effect how they are regulated upon. Everyday living is rife with it but a poignant example might be laws affecting firearms.

It's up to each to decide if and where aberrant behavior of others becomes a drag on their own state of well being. That is something I care about a lot

The upshot for me is, if a MABs chief function is that of a toy or novelty, something which annoys people, or to be not much more than fake motorcycles skirting the law, they run the risks of being received about as well as ATVs, at best regulated to an increasing degree RE: mopeds in the 1970's, at worst including right up to out of existence, or severely restricted to use on private land or designated outback areas.

As the topic itself had slid into generalizations, as I felt my personal opinion would be easily misconstrued without a broader context - yes, I took the liberty of expanding on points made, not limited to or even directly addressing any one individual, but instead the subject itself, it's overall implications as I see them.

To clarify, "snide" is a perhaps judgmental reference to the statement sometimes made by more than one individual, the dismissive "get a motorcycle" that often lacks further explanation & by "bicyclists" I of course did not mean to infer all of them, or even a majority - but simply of those few people with an outspoken, negative opinion regarding motorized bicycling that I have encountered. Aside from those few - I have yet to experience any negativity or hostility whatsoever, certainly not from the average law enforcement officer or the public at large - whom range from indifferent, to curious, even fascinated & enthusiastic.

I saw nor was referring to any comments you made, rather was responding to the sentiment 2 Door put up. I'll have to leave the differences in understanding the lexicon to the vagaries of opinion but perhaps using quotation marks around key words like "bicyclists" might might be illustrative of a true meaning of that term.

In the end, I'd love to see that base of enthusiasm for motor assisted bicycles broadened beyond a limited circle and with mindful thinking and looking at the bigger picture perhaps we will and not be hindered or stopped by what we know.