"So & So" Motorbikes, I don't get it???

GoldenMotor.com
Jul 15, 2009
594
1
0
waukegan IL. U.S.A.
Show me someone turning there own hubs! How about fabing up a nice steel rim for me?
Ever try and make ball berings? There is very little on a bike that I can't make for myself, but why would you? We all are using parts we didn't make and call it our work! Now while I understand your basic gripe (and agree to an extent) what exactly turnes one from posser to pro?
And baird ,tail is always better (unless you can find a female cop and get both :) )
 

motorbiker

New Member
Mar 22, 2008
569
0
0
Tampa Bay Florida
I get asked a lot to build MBs for people... so frequently in fact that it's tempting... flattering though it is, there's a couple few problems that prevent me from even considering it.

It's the classic issues ofc, time & money... but not mine so much as theirs.

Don't get me wrong, I don't consider myself a "master fabricator" who's every second is worth the equivalent of my own body weight in gold, but there's really only two options when building these things, the one most likely to sell is ofc the least expensive - cut every corner w/the cheapest components available, a box store bike that costs $100 or less and using no more than what comes in the $150 kit. After tax, S&H and w/e little things you simply hafta get to make it work - lets say you've about $300 into it. Add in labor and some profit margin and you're looking at selling the thing for somewhere around $450+ at a minimum... lets say $500 just to make this easy - mebbe ya got better grips and a comfy seat *shrug*

So, $500 for a motorized bicycle built for you & ready ta go - sounds like a good deal right? Is it though? It might a good deal for the builder... but is it really such a good deal for the buyer? Let's think for a moment what they're getting for the money. The cheapest new bicycle money can buy with the cheapest stock kit that could be found, bolted together w/o a thing done to either of them to rectify any of the issues that comprise most of this forum - not even the problematic break in period as that takes time (hours = money), built by someone who probably isn't the most skilled as otherwise they'd have charged more.

What kind of person would be interested in this "good deal"? Odds are, someone without any mechanical experience or even the inclination to tinker - else they'd not buy such a simple machine from someone else, they'd just have slapped it together themselves. Problem? They will think it's just like a factory moped, that it'll be a gas & go w/o a worry in the world.

This is a recipe for disaster.

As anyone who's built one for themselves know - there's some... teething pains even with the simplest build. Take a mo and peruse the thousands of "help me" posts throughout every section of this forum to get an idea... and that's mostly folks that had the wherewithal to actually try and build it themselves. Sure, you can build yourself a pretty sweet machine for about $500, but buy one?

There's only three likely outcomes for those that would - they'll get frustrated and trash the thing, be nickel & dimed by the builder to fix all these issues as they develop, or both. Even if they persevere and pay someone to dial it in, odds are it'll be after things have broken - which means not only paying to fix it, but replacement parts as well. Which means even if, IF they don't loose all hope - even after everything is finally sorted as much as it can be, what did they end up with? Just another Walmart bike with a HT kit for almost exactly the price of a brand new Tomos moped - but without the warranty.

I can't in clear conscience advocate that, let alone do it myself.

I love these cheap crappy kits - I really do. I don't even begrudge those that would seek the least expensive bike to build 'em with. Why?

Because they're an incredible opportunity for an exemplary learning experience no matter your background. Young and old, mechanic or not - building these bikes for yourself encourages innovation and self expression with what really is the simplest mode of mechanized personal transport there is. It's a stepping stone, an introduction to what could lead to so much more, these cheap kits provide far more than their cost in education, let alone the satisfaction of riding something you built yourself. It's so not about the bike, it's about the build & if you don't build it yourself you are getting ripped off plain and simple - if not the money, the experience... most likely both.

We've some fabricators building unique works of art that I would recommend to those that haven't the resources to do it themselves, sure they cost the same or more than a moped, they're also not stock HT kits on a wallyworld bike. Sure, there might be a couple of builders out there offering good builds for about that price, for the love of building or just trying to support their own habit - but I'd not bet on finding one.

If truly all that's wanted is inexpensive, basic transportation - get a moped, there isn't a motorized bicycle out there worth the money if that's all that's desired.
Electric motorbicycles are a different breed. Way less problems than a gas moped or scooter for sure ! :)

If the batteries have a charge they will run. :)
 

Lance Portnoff

New Member
Mar 22, 2010
351
0
0
pennsylvania
fyi shop dog, steel rims are not quality, aluminun rims are the gold standard, they can be trued are lighter, and dont bend as easy. oh and I did meet my girlfriend when I was on my bike, and did get tail.
 

Joaquin Suave

New Member
Dec 9, 2008
75
0
0
Alta & Baja California
Were all standing on the shoulders of others.
Of course we are! But that doesn't have much to do with my original complaint about people branding "their" product when their "product" is only really an assemblage of other manufactures products.

Have you ever seen a person take a Trek frame (for example) then assemble it with a brooks saddle, answer handlebars, and whatever components....Then go "parade it" around as his own "JimBob's" brand bike???

I don't think so! So why does adding a motor to the equation make it any different? To me it doesn't.

For some reason, a lot of the motor-bike people find no problem with the practice. And I think that until the motor-bike "krewe" starts holding itself to a higher standard...I don't believe that Motor-bikes will ever be taken seriously as the high-tech efficient COOL vehicle that they are!

Seriously, it is not that hard to design and make your own stuff...And WAY more gratifying!
 

camlifter

Active Member
May 4, 2009
1,033
16
36
acme labs marion ohio
it seems it's a comon practice in the motorcycle chopper world. and we most likely are just following there lead. OCC dosen't really make much of there own parts, the frames, motors and forks all come from other companys, they cut the wheels most times and cut some stock fenders, add some round bar and dimond plate and, walla. the have a custom cycle with there name on it. i don't see much of a differance between us and them. i try to make my bikes as unique as possible but there still just bicycles with motors on them, which i call my own.
 

Erich_870

New Member
Dec 4, 2009
78
0
0
Alaska
I've found this thread to be a very interesting read. Many good points have been made on many important topics in the MB assembling/building world.

The first major question that needs to be answered by any person or company who tries to make a profit from MB's is who is your target customer? This gets us to the demographics of MB riders.

Here's a short, and not complete, list of some of the groups as I see it:
  • Underage kids with very little money
  • Adults with very little money
  • Adults who use them as transportation as a way to get around loosing their DL.
  • Adults who want modern bikes with standard kits
  • Adults who want classic bikes with standard kits.
  • Adults who want custom modern or classic bikes with custom motors and drive systems.

As you may have noticed, my list is also organized by how much each group is typically willing to spend on a bike. There will always be a group or two who is looking for the absolute cheapest form of a MB and they will keep the people and companies this thread complains about in business. They buy the bike, something breaks or goes wrong and they come here to complain, lol! They get a well deserved “I told you so!” from the veterans on this forum and then they learn what a better MB looks like from all of the people on this forum who hold themselves and their builds to a higher standard.

I agree with Joaquin that one way to move the MB industry out of the shadows of sketchy builders is to create different designations for the level of work put into a MB. Making these designations "stick" will take a majority of the people and companies on this forum coming together and agreeing to use this vernacular.

Here's just an idea how the designations could work:
  • Assembler is a good title for a person who buys a low cost bike and attaches a similarly low cost engine kit to it. Whether they put their own stickers on it is less important.
  • Builder could be a title for someone who does more than an Assembler, such as adding custom parts. How many custom parts are required to step up from an Assembler to a Builder? I don’t know, that’s something that needs to be talked about.
  • Fabricator should be reserved for a person who is cutting, welding, machining and otherwise fabricating a good portion of the bike or its drive systems.

Erich
 
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Joaquin Suave

New Member
Dec 9, 2008
75
0
0
Alta & Baja California
Bravo Erich!!!

I would also add...

Manufacturer: A person/ company that designs, makes, or has made to their own spec motor-bike frames and/or motor-bike specific components with the intention of marketing them to the general public.

I have to say guys, I am so happy to find others that share my general feelings on this subject!
 

Joaquin Suave

New Member
Dec 9, 2008
75
0
0
Alta & Baja California
Customer to JimBob:
I think you sold me a piece of cr*p! I want my fricken money back!!!!

JimBobs pionent reply:
Well gosh dood (at this point he twists his "flatbill" 105 degrees in a counter-clockwise direction)...I wish i could refund your money but I spent most your money on crack and a cheap h**ker and the rest of it went towards convincing my ex girlfriend that she didn't need to call child support!

Sorry, I am thinking what this thread should now try to "keep a wrinkle in it".

AND we should start a motor-bike chapter of SOPTAMTOS!
 

scotto-

Custom 4-Stroke Bike Builder
Jun 3, 2010
6,505
24
38
Ridin' inSane Diego, CA.
Am I a poser or fabuildamotorcator? I just can't figure it out......but I did come up with a new name for our motorized bicycle company today.

dnut

Side note: I only build 4-stroke motorized bikes now, but you already knew that!
 

Wm Holden

New Member
Jun 1, 2011
358
2
0
Ventura California
Explanation...in case any of this was directed at me...
I own ribbonprinting.com.
I inherited it from my mother when her brother (yes, my uncle) died suddenly one christmas eve. (3 years ago)
To run the company I must use all of the skill sets.... I've either developed... or had from birth.
Developed: "small engine mechanic for a large lawn care company when i was younger" (2000 yards a week...30 mowers running 7 days a week 10 hours per day)
From birth: a knack for taking **** apart... fixing it...then reassembling it.
also i can read a book frontwards backwards and upside down...dunno...I just can. (for placing typeset in the machines that require constant attention and adjustments) We fabricate many expensive and hard to find parts for these very old imprinting machines with our lathe... using mics and well...whatever it takes. This includes computer systems and software, control systems etc.
Yes..I can build websites...

OK....why does this matter?

Well....I was asked to help a local bike store develop their website.... they had owned the url (name) for 2 years wihout so much as a phone number at the site....I said "that was silly" and put up a scratch site in about 45 seconds.

Ventura Motorized Bicycles

As payment they kindly installed a Grubee GT5 on my schwinn jaguar. ( I immediately fell in love...found you guys...and dove into development of various systems)..(keyed ignition, Alarm, Lighting, electric hub repair and install, etc)

I also came to quickly understand the art and finese in builds by Venice and others. Quality welds, well thought out layout, retro appearance...you get it.

Fast forward to my enthusiasm....yes i jump the gun.

trybridbicycles.com

a hybrid is disappointingly ..merely a mountain bike city bike combo....not a gas/electric bicycle as it should be.
So I bought trybrid and tribridbicycles.com ...logical progressions of that train of thought. gas/elec/human powered bikes.





Once they saw my extended workmanship on the original prototype the bike store asked me to partner up with them to develop many new and exciting concepts as well actual design and CnC products to make everything safer and more enjoyable for the entire industry...perhaps the entire planet.
literally...3rd world countries will be using their gas/electric bicycles to charge their cellular phones in years to come... (which may very well be the difference between "stuck" in poverty and "rising above it" for entire nations) but thats another story entirely.

It's all very exciting and I can just tell this entire industry is on the cusp of a new public awareness of a very old technology. Batteries just caught up with what the support technologies can accomplish.
It's "ART"..... Applied Research and Technology...LOL!!!

Anyhow...if I've offended anyone...I'm truly sorry. No harm has been intended.I could go on defending our obsession...aahh HOBBY....but I think you all may understand my direction and reasons a little better after my rant here.dance1

And that's all I wanted to say.
oh...and i don't like unsafe crap work either...
 
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happyvalley

New Member
Jul 24, 2008
784
1
0
upper Pioneer Valley
I've found this thread to be very interesting to read.
Me too, and partly amused. Those who want to make a business of MBs, good luck to ya, but I suspect much of this is just about bragging rights and/or a stealth attempt at marketing, with maybe some dreams of grandeur thrown in, lol.

The first major question that needs to be answered by any person or company who tries to make a profit from MB's......
Profit or break even and keep yourself in gear? lol. As far as real money or even making a living, there aren't too many Don Grubes out there, or even the much maligned boygofast with his Asia connection probably moved more pallets in a week than most would in a lifetime.

who is your target customer? This gets us to the demographics of MB riders.

Here's a short, and not complete, list of some of the groups as I see it:
  • Underage kids with very little money
  • Adults with very little money
  • Adults who use them as transportation as a way to get around loosing their DL.
  • Adults who want modern bikes with standard kits
  • Adults who want classic bikes with standard kits.
  • Adults who want custom modern or classic bikes with custom motors and drive systems.
As you may notice, my list is also organized by how much each group is typically willing to spend on a bike. There will always be a group or two who is looking for the absolute cheapest form of a MB and they will keep the people and companies this thread complains about in business.
The only omission is, with the 6 categories listed above, you might need to add "with very little money" to all the first 5. Or maybe amend it to "only wants to spend very little money", lol.

Like it or not, the China 2 strokes are lifeblood of the whole gas bike thing and for one simple reason. Price. For a hundred and a half and that bike hanging on the garage wall, you get your motor running.

And BTW, you can't malign or blame a customer base because of that either, if that's the nature of the market and their choice, pi55 them off and they all go away too.

They buy the bike, something breaks or goes wrong and they come here to complain, lol! They get a well deserved “I told you so!” from the veterans on this forum and then they learn what a better MB looks like from all of the people on this forum who hold themselves and their builds to a higher standard.
Meh, upgrade this and better that and sure, but anyone who's tried to do it knows for every hundred dollars of price increase the customer base falls off dramatically. It is what it is. Get much above that $500 price point and the base thins considerably. Higher still, $700 to $1K customers becomes sparser, above that the natural thought starts to dawn on people, those with a valid DL anyway, "Heck, for just a little more I could just get a scooter or motorcycle".

I've attended the NAHBS for the last three years, handmade and custom bicycles with all the hand sawn lugs, TIG welding and fillet brazing under one roof to keep anyone happy. It's rarefied territory with soaring prices.
There sure seems to be a lot of terse frame builders there, taking themselves quite seriously. I'm not sure how many of the attendees do though because there's a lot of people looking and copping ideas but I doubt many are buying. Some of the same builders have had a presence each year, the Richard Sachs and Grant Petersens have broken through, but quite a few fall by the way as well because I only see them once. I think it would help immensely for a custom bicycle maker to have a trust fund, lol.

But here's the thing: Cyclists who will pay multiple thousands for a bicycle, and get on a waiting list to do it, will be the last to buy a motorized bike.
He11, the market for quality ebikes is populated with a much higher end and ready clientèle.

But to gas bikes, in the end it's the backyard guy who never forgot what being a kid was about. Will there be a place for this guy? There sure will. More and more I've come to appreciate the approach of the resident deacon here in DIY, the deacon with his chainsaws, weedwackers, door hinges and unpretentious, low key bikes because after all, that's really at the heart of the whole thing.
 
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brother john

New Member
Jun 25, 2011
85
0
0
Indy
seeing as how we have all these "builders" here could one of ya build me one with a reel type mower attachment that you just slide on in place of the front wheel and that I can pull behind me???So as I can ride around and cut grass while I wait for my ship to come in...
OH and Happy Valley you forgot a group * Lazy a$$ adults that don't wanna peddle.
 

happyvalley

New Member
Jul 24, 2008
784
1
0
upper Pioneer Valley
seeing as how we have all these "builders" here could one of ya build me one with a reel type mower attachment that you just slide on in place of the front wheel and that I can pull behind me???So as I can ride around and cut grass while I wait for my ship to come in...
OH and Happy Valley you forgot a group * Lazy a$$ adults that don't wanna peddle.

No worries, warn't my list, twas quoting the other fella, lol.
 

CousinVinny

New Member
Jul 30, 2010
16
0
0
New York USA
I believe as a builder/seller of MB's, your time would be better spent marketing your bike to your ideal customer. I wouldn't offer high end Tiffany China at a Street Swap Meet - you'd have to pack it all up and bring it back home = wrong crowd, see my point?
What's being proposed here as I see it, is a list of recognized reputable builders, right? I've seen this discussion evolve in two other hobby forums that I frequent. Just look at a couple possible problems with this situation, namely who gets to say what builders are 'reputable' and 2nd, how to maintain this groups level of 'customer satisfaction', will there be a committee to govern this group of builders?
Our group here has a major thing in common with the other 2 builder forums I mentioned, and that is prospective BUILDERS frequent the pages, not BUYERS of finished goods. Your buyers are out there, intelligent and smart marketing will bring them to you with money in hand, good money, the money you deserve for your time and talent. My solution is not to focus on what the other guy is doing, but work on your own product and find YOUR customer. The market will weed out the lesser, low quality cheaply built products. Trust me on this , it always does.
Build what you love building, don't be distracted by what others are doing or by the prices they are charging. The news of the excellent quality you put into your builds will spread, just as the news of crappy thrown-together builds will spread, only 5 times faster, See my point here? If you do excellent work, your work will set you apart from your competition, not some 5 star appointed committee's stamp of approval. -Vinny
 
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wheelbender6

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2008
4,059
221
63
TX
I was searching EBay for "custom motorcycles". There are few motorized bicycles listed as "antique motorcycle replicas". Some are were well done, with frame modifications and custom fuel tanks. One was nothing more than than a beach cruiser with a motor kit. Its always "Buyer Beware" on EBay.