A Few Battery Questions from a Gas Guy

[Tad Bit Tipsy]

Wanted to get some honest opinions of some paths I am looking into for a hybrid stretch. I have a 2-stroke stretch that I cruise on right now, but I am looking to convert it to a 4-stroke left side drive and 900w electric right hand drive. I'm going with the Titan from Dax, and the 900w kit from Cyclone(for more torque). The questions I have for you guys is can I use a solar panel charger on the 36v batteries that come with the Cyclone kit? I will be using the electric motor to accelerate then switch over to gas for cruising. So I will need to charge the batteries on the go, as I plan to travel across country with this bike. I have been looking at the roll up 26w chargers, but most seem to cap out on 12v or 24v, will I be wasting my time trying to charge up 36v? Or should I drop my motor choice to a 12v or 24v? Thanks for any help!

org. thread
http://motorbicycling.com/f40/black-horse-hybrid-stretch-19610.html

 

[Recumpence]

Yes, there are 36 volt panels. The problem is the low wattage per square foot of panel size. It will take a long time to recharge your pack unless you use relatively large panels that can fold out while stationary to add charge output.

Matt

 

[solventerprises]

The trick is really getting a controller that can do the battery charging. You could also stack the batteries for more range. We build these types of bikes now.

 

[SANGESF]

My question is, if you're already using gas, why add an electric motor?
The electric motor will not provide that much more tourque than your gas motor, and requires another level of complexity (not to mention weight) to the cruiser...

It's like taking out the gas engine out of your truck and replacing it with one from a Toyota Hybid...

The gas enhine probably gives you a range of at least 60 miles already, and adding an electric motor, will add range, but probably not that much more than the gas already gives you.... (Plus the cost is prolly another $700+) for something that may give you a little more range, but nothing else)...

 

[Tad Bit Tipsy]

Thanks for the responses!
The reason why I chosen to consider using both, is because of the chance to experiment with the different drive trains and mixing the two. Also the advantage of running silent when on electric! I don't see the extra weight as being too big of a problem. The most it could add would be 20lbs. I'm going to be pulling a trailer anyway, so I've already weighed in on the loss of mpg because of that. I don't consider it a "truck" either. Even though it is a stretch, its not that heavy of a bike, even with a 4-stroke on it. The heaviest thing is me, lol. And I've been on a diet since I started planning this trip. The truth is if the electric system is not a viable option I can afford by the time it comes to leave in September, I'll nix it and maybe add on later down the road. But I wanted some 'help' here on the forum to determine that first. I don't mind paying for the setup, its being able to charge it up on the go which is the monetary question at hand. Solar panels and battery chargers can run just as much if not twice as much more than just the battery, motor and controller. L8R.

 

[fasteddy]

Tad Bit Tipsy, get ahold of Justin at ebikes.ca. He owns an Ebike company here in Vancouver Canada and crossed Canada on an electric powered bike. His blog about it is somewhere on the Endless Sphere site.

I am putting my bike together through him and his knowledge and equipment is top notch.
I think if you e-mail him he will get back to you as soon as he can and will answer all your questions.

Join the Endless Sphere site and ask any questios you have there too. They like to help as much as they can.

Steve.

 

[Tad Bit Tipsy]

Thanks Steve I will. It would be nice to have a seasoned traveler's advice as not many people have used the electric bike to travel.

 

[SANGESF]

I can tell you from an electric standpoint...

if you REALLY want to go (ALL) electric and do some x-country riding....

My own electric bike does on average 100 miles on a charge and only takes 3 hours to charge, if you want more information, just ask.

 

[BossCat]

I can tell you from an electric standpoint...

if you REALLY want to go (ALL) electric and do some x-country riding....

My own electric bike does on average 100 miles on a charge and only takes 3 hours to charge, if you want more information, just ask.

This sounds to good to be true - 100 miles?

Wait, wait, Hold on, aah, I nearly fell for it but after rereading you statement im with you now

Pedal for 90 and Throttle for 10

Regards
Tom

 

[Tad Bit Tipsy]

Tom... you make me laugh. Looks like I'm going to scrap the electric for now, until I get to California. Then I'll be redesigning a whole new ride for the trip to South America. Thanks so much for the help guys.

 

[SANGESF]

This sounds to good to be true - 100 miles?

Wait, wait, Hold on, aah, I nearly fell for it but after rereading you statement im with you now

Pedal for 90 and Throttle for 10

Regards
Tom

No.... All you have to do is what I did and spend $2000 total and...

It's throttle 100% and zero pedal.

2 motors and 2 36v batteries (15ah and 25ah) - both motors are 24v 350w overvolted to 36v.
The wonder of having two motors is that collectively they only have to work 1/2 as hard... Hence the 100 miles at 20mph.

 

[Tad Bit Tipsy]

No....

It's throttle 100% and zero pedal.

2 motors and 2 36v batteries (15ah and 25ah) - both motors are 24v 350w overvolted to 36v.
The wonder of having two motors is that collectively they only have to work 1/2 as hard... Hence the 100 miles at 20mph.

Two motor is an interesting idea. I had thought about a front wheel hub motor and then a rear chain or belt drive motor. Are both of your linked together in the drive train, or are they separate? Does overvolting them do damage in the long run? Thanks for the info. Love that you are using the big amp batteries as I can't see using anything less than 20ah myself for the long haul.

 

[SANGESF]

Well my bike came with a rear hub already and I just added a front hub motor.

The bike was $400, the front hub kit was $300, the front battery was $300, the rear battery was $500, a replacement controller for the rear was $65, two Cycle Analysts were $300, rear battery box was $35 (it's a lockable file folder box I bought from staples, the other $100 or so was used for.. radio, amp, 10" sub, lights, directionals, etc,etc..

As long as you don't ride the motors to hard there should be no problems. I live in Florida where it's flat 99.9% of the time...

My two motors are rated at 350w continuous, so as long as I keep the amp usage to 10a and below continuous, it's fine. Usually I'm at about 7 to 8 amp cont on both motors while able to keep max speed at 20mph (legal limit for Florida)

 

[KiM]

My question is, if you're already using gas, why add an electric motor?
The electric motor will not provide that much more tourque than your gas motor,
else)...

The 900watt cyclone running through bikes gearing would absolutely piss all over a 49cc ICE motor in acceleration AND top speed if geared correctly and new tech (lithium) batteries are used. And as Matt has said, you can charge with the solar panel but it will take you days to do so.


As also mentioned Justin has done a cross Canada trip on electric bike, we have members that have 200 kilometre range PER CHARGE NO PEDALLING As also mentioned you should join Endless Sphere you will get expert advice there, this forum is fantastic for ICE bicycles but not so great for the electric bicycles, lil bit behind the times, hopefully this will begin to change as electric get more popular due to riding oil prices..

KiM

 

[SANGESF]

But gas in the long run IS easier to deal with, because all you need to do is fill up anywhere a gas station is.. Or carry extra duel with you.

Most ICE can easily go 80 miles before needing a refill.

My next build (for next year) will be a 200 mile (350km) combo.

You also have to realize I'm only speaking of hubbased motors with no special gearing. Two 36v 30ah batteries, should be able to accomplish such a feat.
The best thing for me is that I'm doing this with limiting the amount of amperage and speed of my bike and not worrying about acceleration or top speed... Range is my goal..

FYI the best I've done on my bike is 117 miles (195km)

 

[SANGESF]

The 900watt cyclone running through bikes gearing would absolutely piss all over a 49cc ICE motor in acceleration AND top speed if geared correctly and new tech (lithium) batteries are used. And as Matt has said, you can charge with the solar panel but it will take you days to do so.


As also mentioned Justin has done a cross Canada trip on electric bike, we have members that have 200 kilometre range PER CHARGE NO PEDALLING As also mentioned you should join Endless Sphere you will get expert advice there, this forum is fantastic for ICE bicycles but not so great for the electric bicycles, lil bit behind the times, hopefully this will begin to change as electric get more popular due to riding oil prices..

KiM

I would love to know THEIR setup's, beacuse I really haven't met anyone who has a range of more than 60miles (100km) with an electric bike.

 

[Recumpence]

My recumbent runs 25 miles per charge on a 7 pound pack (that is 20mph with no pedalling). So, a 30 pound pack would give me 100 miles, no problem. That is Lipo. The only reason I do not carry more cells is because the farthest I normally ride is 20 miles. But, if I did longer riding, it would be a piece of cake to upgrade to that capacity.

The issue I have with nay-sayers is the whole "Give me a freakin break" attitude.

THe only problem with electric is recharge time versus fill up time for a ICE vehicle. That being said, you can charge Lipo at 2C (30 mimutes) to 95% state of charge. So, run 100 miles, and take a 30 minute break for a snack while it charges, then off you go again.

Matt

 

[SANGESF]

My recumbent runs 25 miles per charge on a 7 pound pack (that is 20mph with no pedalling). So, a 30 pound pack would give me 100 miles, no problem. That is Lipo. The only reason I do not carry more cells is because the farthest I normally ride is 20 miles. But, if I did longer riding, it would be a piece of cake to upgrade to that capacity.

The issue I have with nay-sayers is the whole "Give me a freakin break" attitude.

THe only problem with electric is recharge time versus fill up time for a ICE vehicle. That being said, you can charge Lipo at 2C (30 mimutes) to 95% state of charge. So, run 100 miles, and take a 30 minute break for a snack while it charges, then off you go again.

Matt

I have ZERO knowledge of how Lipo works, all I've heard is that it's not as safe as LiFePO4, so i stayed with LiFePO4. I know Lipo has a better energy to weight ratio then the other Li-ions.

And I stay at C/3, which they say is the best charge to battery life compromise....

I COULD charge at 2C, but I want my batts to last as long as possible, i'm a cheapy believe it or not. I've had the same 25ah battery since Oct 2008 and it's still runs at 25ah, so i'm ahappy

How much can you get a Lipo for? What AH do you have on it, and what kind of weight is on the bike?

The "problem" for me is that I like a STURDY bike (all steel) and all my accoutrements (Lights, radio, subwoofer, amplifier, extra space for 2 spares, all my tools, etc, etc.)

My bike with JUST ONE battery and nothing else on it, weighs approx 100lbs. (45 Kilos)

 

[KiM]

I would love to know THEIR setup's, beacuse I really haven't met anyone who has a range of more than 60miles (100km) with an electric bike.

200 clicks on a charge WITHOUT pedalling, it is Doctorbass bike from Endless Sphere forum.
He uses Konion batteries as per found in Makita and Bosh battery packs. They are Lithium ion

How much can you get a Lipo for? What AH do you have on it, and what kind of weight is on the bike?

22v 5ah packs are available from Hobby City for ~50 bucks a pop. I use 6 soon to be 8 when i get extra to packs from Recumpence (thanks Matt) This will give me 50v 20ah pack the weight is around 15lb all up, the size is smaller than your average car battery. Here's my pack atm as is it weighs 11lb 50v 15ah config including the parallel adapter boards and wiring.

20c capable i bulk charge with a 48v meanwel any balancing thats needed is done via a modified Battery Medic (available from Hobby City) The Booster on it is available from GGoodrums website Tppacks.com along with the parallel adapter boards.

Modern lithium polymer packs can take quite a beating before flames occur, tests on them by Endless Sphere member Liveforphysics saw 7v on a 4.15v cell before it started smoking. I have dropped cells resulting in overcharging the rest to 5v all that happened was puffing. I lanced the cells de-puffed them, as you can see by the pics they are balanced beautifully.

If you want to learn more about lipo Recumpence has a excellent thread in the battery section on Endless Sphere outlines the dos and don'ts of lipo...Matt not only pioneered the rc motors on e-bikes but IMO was one of the first to start using lithium polymer packs too! Now we see a boom in people wanting to use them, 2 years ago if you said you were thinking of using lipo on your e-bike people would have told you your crazy. The chemistry is alot more stable these days thankfully. They are the highest energy density battery to date, you want huge power in light wait form lipos the answer nothing else comes close.

My bike with JUST ONE battery and nothing else on it, weighs approx 100lbs. (45 Kilos)

Same weight as my custom e-cruiser...complete ready to ride

KiM

 

[SANGESF]

My setup is way simpler.
Bought on eBay complete with everything I need already.

It's way simpler for me to just buy fully complete setup's for just a little extra.

Just love my setup, totally legal and gets me far NO pedaling

I think you missed it when I said my 117miles at 20mph is NO PEDALING!

Next year 200mile+ is my goal..
If I could get a moped frame, I would go for 300mile distance, but is probably cost preventative

I think 200 miles is just good enough with a 3hr recharge, how many people can say they go 200 miles (330 kilometers) on their ebike? Not many... At least not here in Florida!!