The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike

K... first off as ya'll may or may not know, I'm not known for buildin' bikes in a hurry lol, I like ta take my time, usually whiling away the winter tinkerin' and somtimes wondern' what in heck I've gotten myself into.

This 'uns no different, well... mebbe a lil heh

Usually I don't like to post till I "cut steel" so to speak but w/this 'un I'm gonna need a lil feedback - as it's a complete scratch build in multiple stages & I've got such a long list of parts to source, such a number of "experiments" goin' on that it'd be foolish of me to not tap the expertise of the members here.

I'm planning on using Atomic Zombie's 'Warrior Racing Trike' for the basic platform, the 178pg .pdf "blueprints" providing more than enough info on the chassis construction w/a ton of helpful hints and tricks not least of which scavenging as many bits from other bikes as possible, which suits me quite well occusly - while there's many a deviation from the basic plans in store for this build, first off & most important I think is I'll be using chromoly 1&1/2" square tubing instead of the 1/16" sidewall mild steel the plans call for as I suspect I may be stressing the frame a bit more that the developers had in mind heh

YouTube - Warrior Tadpole Trike - AtomicZombie.com
Atomic Zombie Extreme Machines! - Bikes Trikes and Choppers Plans.

I've purchased the Lifan 50cc 3speed auto-clutch w/electric start from TBolt for the powerplant (still waitin' on the blasted brown truck lol), for some pretty obvious reasons I wanted it w/reverse - but was unable to find it for domestic sale *sigh* ...is ok tho, it'd be pretty easy to swap engines if I found one.

Engine Model Lifan 1P39FMB
Type 4-Stroke single-cylinder OHC air cooled
Compression ratio: 9.0:1
Displacement: 49.5cc
Max. HP: 2.7 HP @ 7,500 RPM
Max. Torque: 2.0 ftlbs @ 5,500 RPM
Carburetor: 19mm Walbro
LIFAN 50cc Electric - Engines - Lifan 50-150 Engines - LIFAN 50cc Electric - TBolt USA, LLC
http://motorbicycling.com/f37/alternate-4-stroke-engine-list-19630.html

Now... this is where it starts to get a lil odd heh & I'm not really sure of it's viability but w/e, that's what experimentation is all about and is ofc why I'm posting so soon in the R&D phase, to get some feedback from ya'll... Initially I was lookin' into a diesel/electric hybrid but failed miserably in finding any diesel alternative in an appropriate size/weight, sadly they don't seem to exist - not even as a genny Not to be daunted by such setbacks I settled for the four stroker above *shrug* ...I'm not so sure about this 'Magic Pie' electric motor, but after a bit of research it may well be my only option - in fact I'd have ordered it already but to my surprise they want about $120 for shipping alone! Looking around to find less outrageous S&H I found it doesn't matter where I get it, or even from what country - they all want about the same. I figure they're drop shipping from China to get these things, just not all of them are admitting it lol Anyhoo, other than the obviously nice built in features (such as reverse and true regenerative braking) - the primary reason for this particular 'letric is it's disk brake compatibility.

Magic Pie motorized Wheel
Brushless gearless hub motor
Double-wall Aluminium Rim
Built-in cruise/regen controller
Hydro-proof EasyConnect wires
Twist Throttle and Thumb Throttle
Power brake levers for Regenerative Braking
Control switches
Golden Motor ebike Canada

The single 'letric "pancake" motor in the rear was yet another compromise from my original daydream - I'd wanted twin 'letrics for the front wheels, making it a 3WD, this necessitated reversing the polarity of one of the motors ofc & while that wasn't a major problem even with the "Pie" (gotta reverse the phase wires not the main leads) MP Reverse - there were other apparently insurmountable problems, not least of which the axle itself which is not designed to only be supported from one end. Making the problem worse is I really didn't wanna spend almost a grand for just the electric engines... but the smaller, less expensive versions weren't disk brake compatible, had hollow axles & wiring routed in an unsuitable fashion, etc...

As enough is never enough lol, the alterations to the chassis only starts with trying to fit the four stroke engine. While that'll most likely entail going with a twin beam chassis instead of the single in the plans (raising ride height a touch & placing the horizontal engine under the seat), that necessitates a steering mechanism alteration as well as the 'Warrior' steering is in the way ofc...but that's jus' a "minor" detail lol, it gets "worse" from there heh

There's a major problem with runnin' any sort of a trike around here, we've really got no shoulders on our roads to speak of - even when there is, our winters are so harsh and our road funding so poor that they're all torn up and trashed, even if just littered with debris. With that in mind I was initially lookin' into a leaning trike concept for it's narrower wheelbase, even a Delta leaner such as this one: Jetrike.Com - FWD Tilting Recumbent Trike & free plans here: http://jetrike.com/plans/Jetrike-MkII-Plans.pdf?license=I+Accept but I failed miserably again trying to figure out how to motorize it. Unable to get the power to the rear wheels (no CV joints lil 'nuff, U joints not having enough travel), unwilling to use a tiny friction drive on the front w/electrics on the rear - I scrapped the leaning Delta idea and moved on to suspensions...

While a tadpole w/a double A-arm front suspension is ofc awesome: http://berserkercycledesign.com/wp-content/gallery/yellow_production/bottom_800.jpg & YouTube - Comfortable Full Suspension Adult Tricycle and in fact that's prolly my steering solution (that's a 5-7700 dollar trike BTW OMG), the suspension design while superior w/far greater travel - it limits later modification & in fact has an unsuitably wide track...

The rear suspension is so easy it's almost an afterthought heh, it's just your basic bicycle rear suspension & chainstays chopped off at the crank & zotted on. It's been done successfully by so many, so frequently that I almost wonder ifn I outa do something different just to confuse myself heh... but ofc there's always the drive chain from the four stroke and it's tensioning problems to resolve, so I suppose that'll be 'nuff of a headache to satisfy me: Builder's Gallery - Tadpole Trike 4


Sooo... yea, that's a quick outline of the madness I've in mind for this winter - obviously that's just the tip of the iceberg & as I'm still in the sourcing stage there's many a detail sure to change. Some things are simple like controls and brakes with my thoughts being the dual engines call for dual controls, simplified with the left being the front brakes & electric throttle, the right being the rear brake & ICE throttle & shifter. Should for some reason the electric aspect fails (as it's by far the most costly, even unreasonably so) I'll simply use a 36 spoke moped hub w/drum brake & dual sprockets that I've conveniently already gotten... tho it's true that'll limit me to a 3sp as a pedal trike *shrug*

===============================================

Test run vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNLTLRx8sTI

Build pics;

tadpole photo album

Build vids;

walk around
first ride (clip)
relay panel & keyed switch
lighting & controls
jackshaft & freewheel
electric drive
CRF50 clone first start & run
gear indexing & shifting

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)



...mebbe? *innocent look*

TBH, it's more about the results w/this 'un - the questions being in regards to speed, range & efficiency w/the recumbent aspect primarily for comfort, the overall vision being a distance runner.

While I dearly love my HT Rollfast and chose a vintage cruiser for it's comfort w/a shiftkit for efficiency & the engine modded for acceleration - it turns out that despite it's lack of vibration I'm still limited to about a hundred mile range maximum between (premix) fuel reserve and physical exhaustion... perhaps I'm jus' gettin' old lol

So - kickin' it to the next level & what better than a four stroke (pump gas), w/a electric assist to maximize range/boost acceleration speed on a lay-back lawn chair from ****?

I'm hoping it's not too impractical a build, and provided the above links with the thought that some may make it not quite as "different" as accused by building something similar should they be interested... who knows? Any which way it outa be a fun build lol


I also suspect that somethin' similar has ofc been done bfore... I've just yet to find it heh

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Actually your & fasteddy's side car adventures gave me fits of indecision lol - I came really close to not building another bike this winter & makin' a sidecar instead...

The only deciding factor boiled down to width & that if I was gonna hafta put up with the shoulders (or more accurately - the lack thereof), might as well go w/a suspended trike *shrug* it was a really close thing tho, I really do love both of your http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=2495
Even the four stroke thing was a tough decision, I honestly love the two strokes and there's nothing that can beat their power to weight ratio, compact size & suitability for motorized bicycling - yet still, they're not that fuel efficient, tend to be somewhat noisy & given I'm shooting for unparalleled comfort and efficiency over raw speed - even the Morini wasn't an option for this 'un.

But yea - there's w/o a doubt a very large element of "just different" to "keep up the interest" as you say, I've tinkered for a while w/the HTs and have become somewhat proficient with them, including overall reliability ('bout 10,000 miles between two bikes so far). While I did initially want to pursue the diesel thing, we started stocking Lifan utility engines where I work, which led me to investigate the other Lifan engines... which ofc were too tempting to ignore lol

While w/o a doubt motorized bicycling means many things for many people, different aspects attracting all different folks - I personally share the desire to "stretch my abilities and knowledge in new directions" as much as possible, perhaps even more that riding the bdanged contraptions

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Hopefully Cog... sometimes I wonder lol


Well, after at least a month or two of indecision & somewhat relentless research I decided I'd go ahead and get the 'Magic Pie' despite the mixed reviews from various ebike enthusiasts, as it seems with all things there's a confusing bias due to experience, application & even just favoritism... you'd think experience would lead to clarity but as is often the case the more experienced have moved on to more advanced products, naturally building superior components themselves & consequently denouncing the comparatively simple "off the shelf" items as they don't meet their standards... whereas at the other end of the extreme are those with little to no "DIY" experience and love the sheer simplicity of a "bolt and go" yet feature rich product such as the 'Pie'... some folks are after the absolute maximum speed performance, some are after range, some don't care about either and just want simplicity, then there's those that want both

As I'm in the "simplicity" camp & haven't any real ebike experience to speak of & in fact it's not even the primary power source - I figured it'd be "good 'nuff" for my application at least as well as providing a near-infinite flexibility in experimentation - up to and including just pullin' it off the trike and stickin' it on a different bike should my tribrid concept fall short...

So yesterday I bought one of the bdanged things, rim & all - but not the battery pack as enovice I may be, I do know there's comparatively simple DIY alternatives that result in far better battery performance for significantly less money, as well as the fact that my application is somewhat different & I've a bit of flexibility as a result.

The "theory" goes something like thus - while either engine can ofc be used at any point, I'm thinking of using the 'Pie' to assist acceleration primarily, with dual thumb throttles (one on each grip) utilizing the "instant" torque of an electric to reduce the trike's "0-30mph" time. From a stop I depress both throttles simultaneously, releasing only the ICE throttle to shift when needed, releasing the electric throttle when the (unknown) cruise speed is reached & perpetuating cruise with the ICE alone, reserving the electric for hill assist.

As electric engines are known for their relatively outstanding acceleration in comparison to an "equivalent" internal combustion engine & in fact if anything the 'Pie' is reported to have that exact behavior (good acceleration but lacking "top end") I figure this is a complementary combination - excepting of course the unknown losses in performance due to the added weight & drag variables... which honestly - I can't even begin to figure as that's well beyond my humble experience w/these things lol *shrug*

I should prolly mention that I'm not building a maximum speed "racer" & I'll be content with an approximate 35mph max speed, regearing as needed to achieve that sustainably if possible. My interest is more improved acceleration characteristics (playing in traffic) and ofc range.


So... having said alla that I really can't advise or recommend any of this as I simply haven't a clue lol, as Cogswelln said, "either way it looks like a fun build" and that is really what I'm hoping for heh Still, here's a lil info on the 'Magic Pie' - some (outdated, first edition) internal pics and whatnot (click to view);



Vendor: Golden Motor ebike Canada electric bicycle
Forum: goldenmotor.com - Index
User's Manual: http://www.goldenmotor.com/e-Bike-DIY/GoldenMotor Pro-Kit User Guide.pdf

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Defo Tohri & I dig yer project w/o a doubt, part of the reason for the gas/electric/pedal tribrid concept is for maximum range... but mostly 'cause I wanna play w/the idea lol, tho it'd be easy 'nuff to convert yours or mine to electric/pedal hybrids only what with the hub motors being readily available. It'd pretty much be a matter of swappin' wheels & adding a battery pack *shrug*

Matter of fact it 'twas this mean lookin' electric taddy that got me thinkin' three wheels;

KMX Recumbent Tadpole Trikes (Electric or Pedal) - RC Groups

Dunno 'bout the Scottish brogue, I can barely manage passable english & it's my native language lol

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Kevlarr said:

If you have the engine sprocket or an idler sprocket on the same plane and just ahead of the rear suspension pivot you won't have any tensioning problems.

Click to expand...

Hmm... ofc yer right Kev, it's how motorcycles manage to escape the dreaded tensioner issues... I hadn't really considered it a possibility given the distance from the engine's sprocket to the wheel itself - but on the other hand, I hadn't even thought of an idler sprocket TBH & that's defo worthy of some investigation...

My concerns are that the more a chain hasta pass around sprockets & shafts, the more power is lost through drag (also true w/tensioners) & that there'll always be chain wear & adding shafts & sprockets = more individual chains = more tensioning issues... given I'm refusing to have horizontal dropouts for chain length adjustment on this one I'm not really sure how to compensate for the excessive length w/o a tensioner (which would be a sprung sprocket type BTW).

I'm refusing to have horizontal dropouts as a result of some of the lessons my Rollfast build taught me, while they offer nice adjustablity & the potential for some to run a regular HT engine without the kit tensioner - I suffer from axle shift, the torque is strong enough that no matter how I tighten the axle nuts the axle pulls forward on the drive chain side, even bending my dropout adjuster bolts. Granted - part of this is because I cannot tighten the axle nuts enough to prevent movement w/o stripping them as I've a three speed rear hub on that bike & it's got the flat sides on the axle to prevent it from twisting - which means there's about 1/2 the available thread area, but nevertheless it's the one major failing with that build (it's also not a frequent failure, it only happens when I get stupid w/it lol... occusly that's more frequent than I'd like to admit).

Still - I like the idler sprocket concept and it may well solve some of my chain length concerns, even if I need use it and a tensoner(s), so thanks for the idea man

ferball said:

As an idea to simplify steering system why not use the back wheel like a rudder on a boat. Take some getting use to, but it would give you an awesome turning radius if that was your drive wheel.

Click to expand...

Interesting idea ferball, it's got some fascinating potential particularly given the age old battle between tight turning radius and wheelbase (length) for stability... but aside from my fondness for rudders, I really can't see it as viable for this particular build as the four stroke engine would also need to turn w/the rear to keep the chain in line... while I suppose I could make all three wheels fixed with a pivot in the middle (ahead of the engine), as far as I know articulated vehicles aren't known for their high speed stability. While it's a neat idea, I think I'm gonna forgo that 'un as I've already got a few too many "experiments" w/this build lol



Here's a pic of the rear stays I'm thinkin' of using BTW, the shock was junk & undersized for the weight of the trike but at least the stays are steel and I particularly like the dropout location (tho I may change the type) & "box frame" as it lowers the height a bit;



...and I'm still waitin' on the blasted brown truck o.o

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Kevlarr, your idler sprocket suggestion has gotten me to thinkin' (bad news fer everyone lol) and while it may not solve my tensioning dilemma... I'm kinda wonderin' about runnin' the extra bottom bracket on the stays as a jack shaft... which would allow me to use the disk brake mount on the 'Pie for a disk brake (lol, I know right?) as well as providing far more of a potential gear range for the 3sp four smoker (3sp not being really 'nuff of a range I've found)...

The upside is as it's a six speed rear cassette w/a derailleur I don't hafta worry about tension on that'un or about the strength of the disk brake mount on the 'Pie (dunno if it'll take the ICE powwa heh)...

The downside... well, other than extra freewheel, shaft & sprockets... I dunno... gonna hafta think about this 'un for a while...

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Whoohoo! The blasted brown truck showed up at long last!!1!

Occusly, it was right on time, looks like Tbolt sent the engine out the same day I bought it so I've nothin' but my own impatience to complain of heh

Ofc the engine is a lil larger IRL than I thought, particularly in width & this caused me some consternation when I first pulled it out of the box (naturally punching out early at work to play w/the new toy)... but given some time to think about it I realized the width doesn't matter so much as it's no wider than the seat *shrug*

As the plan evolves I've realized that I'm diverging more and more from the 'Warrior' plans, other than the midsection it's beginning to resemble Zombie's 'Streetfox' so I'm gonna go ahead and throw down another $16 for those plans as well, tho honestly when all is done and said I bet there'll be no resembelance to either lol, still here's a coupla pics of the 'Streetfox' to give ya an idea;



In fact tho I'm less fond of it's appearance & position, the steering style on the 'Streetfox' works really well with my space constraints, the 'Warrior's' being under the main boom really wasn't gonna work what with the four stroker bein' there and all;



Naturally, now that I've the Lifan to play with I hadta throw together an approximate mock-up, fiddling around w/some crusty ol' BMX 20"ers & the spare rear rim from my Schwinn (flat ofc), the wheelbase length is about right as is ride height - but width I didn't bother with as that doesn't really matter at this point.



At first I was really concerned with seat height/ground clearance as the lower the center of gravity the more stable it is, but while I've lost some ground clearance (potential problems w/suspension ofc) interestingly enough the seat height is almost the same as the 'Streetfox' in the mock-up so it might be ok after all...

Although still "made in China" the Lifan is a completely different beastie than the HT's I've grown to love, the castings on the Lifan are gorgeous in comparison - I've yet to find a flaw or even a cosmetic blemish. Ofc we'll see how it runs & that's the important bit - but man, if it runs half as well as it looks it'll be a sweet lil machine!

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

o.o

I hate duct tape *shakes fist* ...but that's a different rant lol


hmm... Primary transportation? Long trips & such? ...Well, you've nailed the major flaw w/this project - it's sad but true the usability of a trike 'round these parts is highly questionable, the more I look for suitable roads for the thing the less I find While I'm trying to design it for maximum range & comfort (in excess of 100 mile round trips) it may be the case that it'll get set aside for just the occasional jaunt as I'll be risking life & limb and irritating the heck outa the cagers as I hog what little roadside there is... I've some thoughts about packing up some camping gear and heading off into the sunset w/the thing - but I'm getting ahead of myself as I've not built it yet & dunno the performance aspects, even it's reliability *shrug* It may well jus' be another winter distraction and a mere engineering exercise... but ofc I've thought the same of every project so far so we'll see lol

Ha - far from neglected the Rollfast continues to serve me well as my daily commuter, tho in a fit of jealousy she "refused" to take me home from work the day I ordered the Lifan - with an unpleasant surprise, my first flat tire. Too tired from work to deal with emo bicycle silliness I dusted off the ol' mountain bike Schwinn (conveniently stored @ my workplace) and zoomed off to go home - only to be reminded that the forgotten featherweight is actually really fun to ride! Cutting across the corner store's yard, through the ditch & catching a lil air on the other side, I'm lookin' forward to usin' it as my commuter once again when the blasted ice & snow make it's annual appearance, when the long, cold dark creeps up on us all

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Sweet, glad ya've joined the geared club Cog - with the hills around here it sure helps

How's it riding w/the roads we've got? I know ya tend to run w/a 2 wheeled trailer so yer prolly used to it, but ditch runnin' is new to me lol