Ontario Canada, MTO info

Not correctly true, power-assisted bicycles are covered and non-lawfully reffered to as electic motorised bicycles and or e-bikes. Learn the difference. No where does it say anything about *kit* form. If you know something that no one else know, then show it and share it. Power-assisted bicycles that ARE in compliance MUST have affixed to them a label or seal by the MANUFACTURER stating that it complies. If you do not have that manufacturers seal/label, you DO NOT have a power-assisted bicycle. What you might have is a bicycle modified with an electric motor and controller. One is legislated, the other is not. Learn the difference, learn the law, and for everyones sakes, please use the correct terminology in the correct contexts and fashion. Failing to do so contributes to the dumbing down of anyone reading.

Interesting side note here. Recently published by a university professor was an article (which Im about to paraphrase) that stated that the media does a disservice to the public by using terms incorrectly. It contributes to the dumification of the masses. Then cited numerous stories that related directly to the public, ones where 5 different news outlets, each said something different from the other. What alarmed the professor was the fact that not a single one of the outlets correctly reported the real facts.



Why is it that people keep puting words in my mouth that I have NEVER spoken or inferred? I never said I condone anything, nor have I stated that I dont condone anything. I was trying to educate you on correct usage.

another one

keep this up and someone here could be looking at slander and deffamation of charachter charges.

Talking to some of you is like talking to a parrot, you mimmick sounds without knowing what those sounds mean. I try to explain things in the most basic form possible in an attempt to share valuable knowlege and its like Im playing grand master level chess whilst most here dont even know how to play checkers. It appears as though some of you are incapable of comprehension. Please educate youselves for your own well being.

Heres a little primer on my background.

Begal legal studies in 1987/1988. Was going to go into practise for contract law. This stuff is sooo specific, and soo further more complex than normal law, that a single comma in a 12 page document can change the entire meaning and intention of the legal document, it might even render it null in void. Yes, punctuation in legislation can be just as, if not more important than the words written.

Four and a half years and a couple small certificates and a diploma later, I turned my attentions to something I found to be more interesting and more challenging than law, and something that let me work with my hands as well as my mind.

I am also very much involved in the classic/performance/custom automobile and motorcycle arena for the last 18+ years. I have education/training/and experience in design, mechanical engineering, fabrication, auto body, mechanics, science, physics, electronics, metalurgy, (pretty much with everything and anything that moves mechanically). In addition to that, I belong to numerous groups/associations/clubs/organizations/car shows and cruises. I personnally oversee no less than 3 other sub-sub specialty neiche market vehicle groups. One meantionable organization I've had relations with is the S.V.A.O. (Specialty Vehicle Association of Ontario), which has had an open diologue with, and has worked in parralel with and has helped to guide the MTO and every Minister of Transportation, politician with direct links to transportation and legislators for the past 15 years. SVAO was a key contributor to programs such as Drive Clean among others. I was lastly associated with the previous transportation minister Donna Cansfield. Another group I belong to had a private 2 hour candid meeting with her just before the new street racing laws took affect, unfortunatly without the results most were after. In addition to all that, I am also in regular communications with various police services. I communicate with them both online and in person (usually at certain weekly events and meetings). I have also been a party to E.R.A.S.E. + P.A.C.E.R. (Eliminating Racing Activity on Streets Everywhere + Police And Community Educating Racers). I mostly deal in the classic/performance and custom vehicle realm, but sometimes Im also involved with the tuner scene.

I only became involved with these little contraptions recently (last 3 summers)

Do I know a little about what Im talking about? **** YES.

Unfortuneatly I feel as though my valuable time is wasted here.

POPS I DO NOT want to have an argument with you about the laws in BC BUT can I point out without you flaming me that when I looked at the vehicle definitions on the ICBC website and then checked out the BC Motor Vehicle act I think the guys that got busted were shafted. A bicycle modified with a gasoline engine kit does not fit into any of the ICBC vehicle definitions and as well a bicycle modified with a gasoline engine kit does not fit any of the definitions in the BC Motor Vehicle Safety Act. You mentioned one of the charges was "illegal thing on the road" ...is that an actual charge in BC? If so how they could be convicted on that is beyond me because because I see nothing in the BC MVSA that specifically makes a bicycle that's been modified with a gasoline engine kit illegal.

The definition of "cycle" in the BC MVSA is...

means a device having any number of wheels that is propelled by human power and on which a person may ride and includes a motor assisted cycle, but does not include a skate board, roller skates or in-line roller skates;

The definition of a MAC in the BC MVSA is...

(a) to which pedals or hand cranks are attached that will allow for the cycle to be propelled by human power,

(b) on which a person may ride,

(.c) to which is attached a motor of a prescribed type that has an output not exceeding the prescribed output, and

(d) that meets the other criteria prescribed under section 182.1 (3);

The definition of a motor vehicle in the BC MVSA is...

means a vehicle, not run on rails, that is designed to be self propelled or propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires, but does not include a motor assisted cycle;

The definition of a motorcycle in the BC MVSA is...

means a motor vehicle that runs on 2 or 3 wheels and has a saddle or seat for the driver to sit astride;


A bicycle modified with an 80cc engine kit is not a moped (LSM) as defined by the ICBC either when you read the ICBC's definition of one...


* Has no more than a 50 cubic cm engine displacement or 1.5 kilowatt motor rating
* Does not need clutching or shifting after the drive system is engaged
* Has a maximum speed on level ground of 70 km/h and weighs no more than 95 kilograms, excluding fuel and batteries
* Must have wheels that are 25.4 cm in diameter or more



Again POPS I'm not being malicious...I'm just pointing out what I'm reading and what I've read so far says to me the guys that got busted out there maybe got shafted and that's just not nice news to hear.

BC Motor Vehicle Safety Act

ICBC


Cheers

__________________
I refuse to be taken apart...

Just a quickey.

If you think your contraption is legal because you have registered it and all, you might find this bit interesting.

If you have signed an affidavid swering that your contraption meets all pertaining regulations, you may be in violations of complyment IF;

1. you have regular bicycle tires. bicycle tires are made from poor quality materials and compounds. They do NOT meet safety requirements befitting "moped" tires. They are NOT speed rated and are NOT D.O.T (Dept of Transportation) approved. Should not pass safety with bicycle tires on a "moped"

A friction roller (dependant on design) causes the construction of a bicycle tire to rapidly break down before its expected life, and, it prematurely wears it out, esp when wet or dusty. This *could* be a huge safety factor, allways regularly inspect them as they could cause a catastrofic blow out. Someone could potentially get hurt or dead if run over by a car in such a cercumstance.

2. Fail to have front and rear suspensions. "mopeds" are required to have both. Missing one and your "moped" is in violations, Should NOT pass safety.

3. Mens bicycle frame design. "Mopeds" have what is referred to as having "a walk through/step through frame design". If you have a cross bar and or need to *kick* one leg over the frame and or body of vehicle in order to *mount* the seat, you are in violation.

4. Brakes, ordinary bicycle breaking mechanisms do not meets safety requirements befitting a "moped"

list goes on, required equipment and safety things that are not up to par with a "moped" are things like hub bearings, spoke guage, weld quality, frame tube thickness (bicycle frame tube thickness and quality are no where near whats required for a bonafied motor-vehicle), minimum seat height, maximum handle bar to seat height ratio, maximum and minimum lux lumination requirements for a headlight, and on and on.

Oh and another thing to watch out for is the quality of the hardware (nuts and bolts) and the kill switch. Make sure it has good continuity and measure its resistance. Cheap digital multimeters are readily available. A little corrosion could mean a non-functional kill switch. Male sure it works properly, and have an alternative back up way to shut off your motor in case. Do NOT under any condition try to pull off the spark plug boot from the plug while the motor is running. Small engines are capable of 30,000 volts output. A few milliamps is all it takes to stop the human heart. Dont mess with the electronics if you dont know what your doing. The capacitor is equally deadly, do not attempt to touch it or discharge it without proper tools. Capacitors can be found in almost anything electrical (TV, DVD players, cameras, etc..) could kill you and they can blow up. Do a youtube video search on capacitor safety.

Do you comply with regs that you've registed your contraption as? If not, you are in violation.

Oh, and a non-HTA thing is the EPA, is your *motor* EPA certified and or approved for your intended purposes?

in short, theres so much more involved than just the MTO / HTA.

imho,

it strongly appears that one person is directing people into riding motorized bikes on the road, than offering legal advice on how to fight a conviction.

others apparently agree

Rock


No offence taken

Your right!!

A HT. does not fit into any category that BC laws have.
Because they were rideing them on the road WITHOUT it being classified
in any category made them automaticaly guilty!

The only thing that can ride on the road here WITHOUT Plates,Lic,Ins. Etc. is
500 or less E/Bike so they all fell for NO Ins,Lic,Plate, Etc. and a vehicle that did
not comply to be legally on the road so they got charged with that too and had
their bikes confiscated!!!! They are REALLY SNARLIE here towards bikes!!!


Cheeers right back at ya...POPS

If anything, I dont want you on the roads because I feel most of those here are not intelligent enough or responsible enough to be on them. I prefer you stay home and read. If your talking about me, then please show me and everyone exactly where I have directed people into riding motorized bikes on the road. I can, however, show in many of my posts where I say to stay OFF the roads unless you know what your doing. The less of you on the roads wreaking havoc the better, and the less the intelligent responsible ones will be pulled over. I have said it a few times already, GET ME COURT TRANSCRIPS AND PARTICULARS AND I'LL LOOK THEM OVER. EVERY SINGLE PERSON, THEIR CONTRAPTION, AND ROADSIDE STOP IS UNIQUE AND DIFFERENT. THERE IS NO ONE SINGLE MAGICAL SOLUTION. I PRESENT IDEAS AND OPTIONS ONLY. THE SMART ONES HAVE ALREADY FIGURED IT OUT. I DO NOT GIVE LEGAL ADVICE BECAUSE I WILL NOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE OR LIBLE FOR YOUR STUPIDITY OR ACTIONS.

It strongly appears that most persons CANNOT COMPREHEND basic English let alone Legalise.


Im going to say this one more time. I have never conveyed that I condone anything, nor have I conveyed that I do not condone anything. In addition, I have NOT told anyone to ride, nor have I told anyone not to ride, nor have I told anyone to do what they want. I HAVE NOT TOLD ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING AT ALL.


A thought that I feel compelled to ask. Why are you here in this forum? If you feel that these motored contraptions are *soooo Illegal* then you probably dont own one or ride one, and, if you dont own one, why are you here?




Case law exists (case law is rulings by the courts and judges, which subsequently becommes common law) where people have sucessfully defended their cases and were found to be NOT GUILTY. That means that a defence exists and is available to everyone who bothers reading them and uses them. What that also means is that by being NOT GUILTY, these people were NOT in violation of any known laws, hence, it was and is perfectly legal for those individuals in thier specific situations to operate their contraptions on public use roads. Everyone and thier contraption is a unique case from everyone else. Cannot stress that enough.

I provided information to one such *famous* case, but the post was removed. I will not waste all that time discussing the specifics of it again. Its something that is available to every police officer, lawyer, prosecutor, J.P., Judge, and court. It is CASE LAW. Short story version is that an individual with a motor affixed to thier contraption was found NOT GUILTY, further the court ruled that that individual has as much right to use said contraption on public use highways as does any person with their "vehicle". In this case there was NO registration, NO insurance, NO plates, failed to have required equipment and was found NOT GUILTY. How can that possibly be? All ye naysayers who say it cant be done, I say look it up. (Please note I paraphrased here, but the info is no less relavent {in may situations anyways}).

More case law exists from insurance companies. This, some of you might find interesting. Here's a scenario:

Jason builds a home made contraption which he calls and refers to as a "motor-assisted bicycle (Moped)". He registers it, signs an affidavit (a formal sworn statement of fact, signed by the author), has a safety done, gets it plated, insured, and rides it with an M Class Licence. The MTO has never actually seen Jasons contraption, they simply go by what Jason has sworn to. Jason then has an accident causing property damage and injury to a third party. Medical costs are in the hundreds of thousands for needed operations. Jason is charged with something and the investigating officer takes pictures and evidence of the accident scene. Jason goes to make an insurance claim from his insurance company. The insurance company sees the accident photos and say "nope, not gonna pay out, that thing is NOT what we insured, not what we contracted". This is because the insurance company believed all along that it was insuring a real "motor vehicle" (homebuilt or otherwise). It does not matter that you have registration saying it IS a "motor vehicle" to the insurance company, because they have their own rules and can make thier own case against it. Jason then sues his insurance company as he is on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical expenses. It is not uncommon to hear about insurance companies not wanting to pay out on claims, and its not uncommon to hear about clients sueing thier insurance companies. The insurance company goes to court (as a defendant) and their lawyers prove in court that Jasons contraption is not really a "motor vehicle". The insurance company wins with a court ruling, and Jason is screwed. Jason is now personally lible for all expenses. Making things potentially worse is not that the insurance company has won, it shows that Jason did NOT have proper coverage and now *may* face charges of not having proper insurance. *May*, because his contraption might not actually be a "motor vehicle" as ruled by the courts on behalf of the insurance company. So in cases like that (each one is unique), *some* of these contraptions are *not* "motor vehicles" even though they may meet some of the definitions of various legislation. So if some arnt, then maybe, just maybe, yours isnt either.

What this means is that yet further case law evedince exists that could be used, if you bother to look for it in the first place, that a persons contraption *MIGHT* not actually be a "motor vehicle" that warrants any fines or charges.


Case laws are generally publically available. You can find much online for free, request court documents (transcripts) from the courts and get an authorised hard copy version, visit a law library, etc...


ALANJ has said in one of his posts that he's registered his contraption to meet complyance, but, that his insurance broker cannot find anyone to insure it. Well, if ALANJ (or others in a similar situation) actually bothered to read some legislation, they would learn that they CANNOT be denied "motor vehicle" coverage. Maybe ALANJ's broker doesnt know what they are doing, weird because they work in the industry and *should* know the governing laws. Or maybe ALANJ's broker *does* know what they are doing and realises that ALANJ's contraption doesnt actually qualify as a bonafied "motor vehicle", or maybe its the opinion of the insurance companies that the broker has access to. Insurance companies share information, and their lawyers compile case law verdicts from the courts rulings with other insurance companies, for future reference.

Just because something *looks* to fall into a definition of something, does not necessarily mean that that thing IS what is being defined. The courts are fully aware of this. A volleyball painted with black and white octogons is NOT a soccer ball. Might *fit* into the definition of a soccer ball (about the right size, about the right shape, about the right weight, about the right bounce, about the same contruction, about the right number or octogons, etc..) but DOES NOT MEAN IT IS a soccer ball. Not all round, bouncy, black and white octogon patterned balls are soccerballs. It IS a volleyball thats been modified. Some soccer balls themselves dont qualify as real soccer balls. Ask any sanctioned soccer body this. A bicycle with a motor *might* fall into definition as a type of "motor vehicle" but does not necessarily mean it IS a "motor vehicle" (as court verdicts have proven this fact on behalf of private persons and insurance companies alike). Every case is different, and something may just very well actually be a "motor vehicle". AGAIN, EVERY CASE IS UNIQUE.

English language spelling = license
Legal language spelling = licence

Go look at how the words appear in an English dictionary and how they are written on you licence card and in legislation, or even at the MTO website, Getting an Ontario Driver's Licence this is NOT a typo, this is intentional. Why is this? Because these are two seperate languages that *appear* to be spelled and pronounced similarily. I keep trying to point out these things but to no avail. Learn the difference and when and how to use them. Now go look carefully at how things are spelled in laws and how they are spelled in an English language dictionary. I keep repeating myself on these things but no one appears to comprehend them. Once again, English language words are not necessarily the same as legal language words. Legal language words *can* have very different meanings, definitions, characteristics, attributes, intentions, contexts, etc.... than what you may be used to.

Do yourself a huge favour and go purchase a hard copy of Blacks Law Legal Dictionary (do a quick net search of its importance). Learn how to read it, then go read it, then go back and re-read the legislations pertaining to your contraption, then come talk to me.

Do your own research. Its one of the best ways to learn something, by proactivly being involved in your own education. Go ahead, dont take my word for it, I wont mind, in fact, I insist on it. Prove me wrong, if Im wrong, then fine, then I can upgrade my knowledge base, and would appreciate the valuable information.



One more thing. The definitions section of any Act generally means that those words defined in that Act apply to THAT Act and not to other laws. So the defined word in the HTA of say "motor vehicle" is to be applied to that act only, and perhaps a specific section of said Act. Go look it up and see that "motor vehicle" has one specific definition in the HTA and another definition in the MVSA.

from

Motor Vehicle Safety Act

from

The Highway Traffic Act


the mvsa definition is from 1993, dont know if they updated it.

what do they mean by "capable of being driven or drawn on roads by any means other than muscular power exclusively"? if it can be drawn by muscular power only or by muscular power and motor at once, or just the motor w/o muscular power, then its good to go?

according to hta then theres also this from hta

so if its 49cc or under its considered a moped and the person riding it gets shafted with no registration/insurance, but if its an "80cc" it doesnt fit into any category and its good to go? doesnt say anything about whether its a factory made moped or a bicycle with a motor attached.

what sort of motorized bike owners have gotten away with riding on the street? 50cc 2 stroke engine framemounted on bicycle with hand operated clutch/driven gear box? how about 80cc 2 stroke engine framemounted on bicycle with hand operated clutch/driven gear box? other?

where to look for this information?

Anyone but me think the HTA is kind of contradicting itself when it says a power assisted bicycle has an electric motor and is not considered a motor vehicle and a motor assisted bicycle which also has an electric motor is considered a motor vehicle?

My personal interpretation of the HTA leaves me thinking that there's much more to the make up of a motor assisted bicycle than it's cc rating. Same goes for a power assisted bicycle, there's more to it than the wattage specification.

__________________
I refuse to be taken apart...

Rock

From what I understand the HTA put out guidelines and then let all the provinces

interupt it the way they wanted. Thats why all the laws, fines, etc. are different

from province to province...POPS

Forgive me if this has been posted already. I quickly scanned the thread but I did not read it in depth.

These document was published by Alberta Transportation in April 2008

Operators Licence Information For Motorcycles, Mopeds
and Power bicycles

Page 14 is interesting. Heck, the graphic they use even looks like one of the rackmount kits.

A power bicycle is defined as follows in the:
Use of Highway and Rules of the Road Regulation.
1(o): “power bicycle” means a vehicle that
(i) may be propelled
(A) by human muscular power,
(B) by mechanical power, or
(C) partly by human muscular power and partly by mechanical power,
(ii) is fitted with pedals that are continually operable to propel it,
(iii) has a motor that produces not more than 750 watts and that is driven
by electricity or has an engine with a displacement of not more than
50 cubic centimetres,
(iv) does not have a hand-operated or foot-operated clutch or gearbox
driven by the motor that transfers power to the driven wheel,
(v) does not have sufficient power to enable it to attain a speed greater
than 35 kilometres per hour on level ground within a distance of 2
kilometres from a standing start, and
(vi) weighs not more than 35 kilograms.
Note: Some vehicles may appear to be power bicycles. However, if they exceed the
weight of 35 kg or the speed of 35 km/h, then they do not fall into the power bike
classification and are, instead, considered mopeds.

A power bicycle is NOT a motor vehicle in Alberta and as such requires no Licence, Registration or Insurance. There are age restrictions however and you must wear a helmet.

I carry a copy of this with me but I have never needed it.

__________________
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Find out about my latest bike project at: Tribridbike.com