sick of cheap gas units!!!!!
- Thread starter toker_ace
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Electric bikes are definitely the future of MB's. However I personally don't think they are quite there yet. Yes they have plenty of power and speed for sure, but the range is still to short and the recharge time is still to long, and the batteries are still to expensive.
If you are tired of cheap gas bikes than build or buy a quality gas bike. I don't buy engine kits anymore because I only use the engine and maybe the CDI, the rest of the kit parts are junk. My current bike has close to 1000 hard mikes on it and it runs, looks, and rides great. I always say, "you get what you give"...
If you are tired of cheap gas bikes than build or buy a quality gas bike. I don't buy engine kits anymore because I only use the engine and maybe the CDI, the rest of the kit parts are junk. My current bike has close to 1000 hard mikes on it and it runs, looks, and rides great. I always say, "you get what you give"...
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Before you start an Ebike build think about how you will use it. If its a commuter how far? How much do you have to spend? The terrain you will ride. All these things determine the practicality. Building the bike itself is generally cost wise in line with an entry level IC build. The batteries are the main consideration/cost factor. A good basic build will cost at least $750 less the bike itself. That's factoring $250 for a common hub motor kit and $500 for a good battery. If the bike is just a point of interest/tinkering then the cheaper SLA batteries can cut $350/400 off the cost with a weight penalty. I have both E and IC bikes, I like them both. The E is the easiest and most pleasant to use, and properly built will rival a basic IC build in most ways except range and on the road "refuel" capability. Understanding the ultimate use of the bike will determine how well it will fill your needs and how happy you will be with it. I have read more threads of Ebikes being use daily for transportation than IC versions.
After talking with Paul I am going with the magic Pie 4 and the 10amp 48 volt lipo 4 battery. Paul was such a help in explaining everything to me...mid drives ect..
I'm sure everyone has their own opinion but I want something strong and dependable. The 2 strokes were fun for years and still have one loaded with everything ( SBP jack shaft, expansion chamber, upgraded components, 3 speed sram rear wheel, lights, ect...) but I want smooth quiet power.
I will let everyone know how everything goes. Toker
I'm sure everyone has their own opinion but I want something strong and dependable. The 2 strokes were fun for years and still have one loaded with everything ( SBP jack shaft, expansion chamber, upgraded components, 3 speed sram rear wheel, lights, ect...) but I want smooth quiet power.
I will let everyone know how everything goes. Toker
Jus' as a BTW - if you're going for 1000w (1.3hp) @ 48v, you'll need a 20a BMS (battery management system) battery pack, 10a @ 48v is a mere 480w (0.64hp)... unless ofc that's what you wish 
Sorry toker, it's not that big a problem really - it's just for a "48 volt lipo 4 battery" to be able to power a 48v 1000w hub fully, it needs to be able to supply 20 amps. It's usually the controller & BMS that regulate this, if the controller is for a 48v 1000w motor then it's fine & BMS units are usually included with 48V LiFePO4 battery packs and they're usually for a minimum of a continuous 20 amp in any case.
It's only that you mentioned "10 amp" & I wanted to be sure you knew what that meant, but it's no more an issue then calling/emailing the supplier to confirm you're getting what you wanted.
As an example only, this is one supplier I've used http://www.pingbattery.com & on their specifications pages you'll see;
"Rated Discharging Amperage: 10 Amps
Max Continuous Discharging Amperage: 20 Amps
Maximum Discharging Current: 40 Amps
Discharging Cut-off Protection: 30 Amps"
Which is pretty much standard for packs like these
To take some of the mystery outa the math I hate so much, this is one of may favorite online calculator sites, providing jus' about every conversion calculation known - this is one you may find handy, don't worry the ohms jus' enter any two fields & click for the answers: http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/watt-volt-amp-calculator.htm
It's only that you mentioned "10 amp" & I wanted to be sure you knew what that meant, but it's no more an issue then calling/emailing the supplier to confirm you're getting what you wanted.
As an example only, this is one supplier I've used http://www.pingbattery.com & on their specifications pages you'll see;
"Rated Discharging Amperage: 10 Amps
Max Continuous Discharging Amperage: 20 Amps
Maximum Discharging Current: 40 Amps
Discharging Cut-off Protection: 30 Amps"
Which is pretty much standard for packs like these
To take some of the mystery outa the math I hate so much, this is one of may favorite online calculator sites, providing jus' about every conversion calculation known - this is one you may find handy, don't worry the ohms jus' enter any two fields & click for the answers: http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/watt-volt-amp-calculator.htm
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OIC, yea now I get it - it's 10ah (amp hour) not 10 amps - no problem then Amp hours are how you measure the size of fuel tank so to speak (reserve capacity) rather then the flow of the fuel (amps). So 10ah = 20 amps for 1/2 hour, or 10 amps for an hour, or 1 amp for 10 hours... you get the picture I'm sure
Amp hours are how you measure the size of fuel tank so to speak (reserve capacity) rather then the flow of the fuel (amps). So 10ah = 20 amps for 1/2 hour, or 10 amps for an hour, or 1 amp for 10 hours... you get the picture I'm sure 
I have been flying the MP3 and 10ah lifepo4 for the last year, almost, its a great setup.
Just personal opinion.
Its not quite a bike any more, too difficult to pedal without motor with the drag of the pie and the extra weight. You can but its no fun.
Its not quite a motor-cycle, have to get into the Fighter/Bomber/Phasor bikes for that.$$$
One thing if you ride in the dirt or have steep hill climbs you may not want to run the MP4 controller over 20amps, that little battery wont like it. However you will like it at 30amps! 48v 30a=1440watts that's where it starts to get real fun. 750w is the legal limit in USA.../cough.../cough.
Super fun stuff you will love it. Jump in!
Just personal opinion.
Its not quite a bike any more, too difficult to pedal without motor with the drag of the pie and the extra weight. You can but its no fun.
Its not quite a motor-cycle, have to get into the Fighter/Bomber/Phasor bikes for that.$$$
One thing if you ride in the dirt or have steep hill climbs you may not want to run the MP4 controller over 20amps, that little battery wont like it. However you will like it at 30amps! 48v 30a=1440watts that's where it starts to get real fun. 750w is the legal limit in USA.../cough.../cough.
Super fun stuff you will love it. Jump in!
They do have a bit of resistance, maybe like an exercise machine. Not really something you are going to just pedal around though. I mean you can but without the motor its really not that neat. I will say I run a single speed with tall gears. With a multi-geared bike it will be easier.
Geared motors freewheel better than the DD motors but are generally louder,
so I read, I am just a yearling in this ebike stuff. Working on a geared bike/geared hub bike now, watch out this stuff in addicting.
Geared motors freewheel better than the DD motors but are generally louder,
so I read, I am just a yearling in this ebike stuff. Working on a geared bike/geared hub bike now, watch out this stuff in addicting.
My MP2 doesn't offer much resistance but you can get plenty of exercise assisting which also extends your range. Golden says for pedal only the battery must be connected to protect the controller. My geared motor has a freewheel clutch so its basically drag less under pedal. I have an MP2 rear hub and really like it. I also have a 9C and it preforms just as well but the MP seems to operate on less amperage at a given speed. Im all for over volting hubs. You get an increase in speed, less amp draw and more wattage(read torque). Most controllers 36v and up will accept voltages up to the high 50s with no problems. You do need a way to monitor the voltage though as the LVC will be to low so its up to the operator to know when to cut the battery.
I loaned a friend my 58v spare battery while Ping built a 36v 15ah for his 36v system. When he rode with the 36v battery I didn't see a smile on his face like I did with the 58v unit.
Welcome to the world of Ebiking, but watch out its highly addictive!
I loaned a friend my 58v spare battery while Ping built a 36v 15ah for his 36v system. When he rode with the 36v battery I didn't see a smile on his face like I did with the 58v unit.
Welcome to the world of Ebiking, but watch out its highly addictive!
Spinning my MP3 by hand, wheel in air it makes 3.5 revolutions before it stops.
Standard bike, no motor just a MTB hub makes 18.5 here in the garage.
Don't get me wrong I love my Pie, 1200 mile so far.
Its just not really a bike to pedal without motor.
Something else to think about is if you carry your bike up stairs, you will most likely end up with a 60-70lbs bike with the pie setup. For me its to bulky to be going up and down stairs.
Like CB2 said just pedal with the motor, you will find your self on the bike more often just because its so easy, it has to be more healthy than just thinking about riding.
Standard bike, no motor just a MTB hub makes 18.5 here in the garage.
Don't get me wrong I love my Pie, 1200 mile so far.
Its just not really a bike to pedal without motor.
Something else to think about is if you carry your bike up stairs, you will most likely end up with a 60-70lbs bike with the pie setup. For me its to bulky to be going up and down stairs.
Like CB2 said just pedal with the motor, you will find your self on the bike more often just because its so easy, it has to be more healthy than just thinking about riding.
From what I have been just reading over at the Sphere geared motors are worth looking at. I just bought one, but bought it more for its size and weight. Seems they are capable of making a great deal of torque at low wattage and climb very well. The BMC units are being run on as much as 72v! Gears are a problem when being greatly over volted though, and they are supposed to be a bit more noisy than a DD. The comparison was made that a 24v 250w would climb like a 36v 500w DD. There are many of these little motors powering light off road/trail bikes using the light weight R/C battery set up. Sounds like a winner to me. Guess I will know soon.
Something to consider especially if weight is an issue.
Something to consider especially if weight is an issue.
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Of note - while there is some minor resistance/drag while pedaling an unpowered hub motor, I have found it's generally insignificant, even unnoticeable at the leisurely cruising speed we'd be likely to be pedaling at.
The faster you go, the greater the drag ofc (an issue w/my hybrid for example) but at the 10-15mph max average of "normal" pedaling, I honestly can't tell my MP2 is even there at all. I'm sure a more dedicated pedalist would be more sensitive to such minute differences, but in the coupla years of muscling 'Mongo' about I've had no cause to complain, or consider anything different.
As for geared hubs and/or geared mid-drive systems, in my personal opinion they're not worth the added complexity & maintenance for a somewhat dubious gearing advantage. Yes, gears do aid with extreme hill-climbing but it's not comparable at all with ICE gearing as the power band (torque & HP curves) is so decidedly different, the penalty in range/reserve painful to say the least when the difference between geared/ungeared is a matter of a few pedal strokes.
I think the biggest advantages of electrics is twofold, the first being the stunning simplicity as hub motors are essentially comprised of one moving part - the second being the "instant torque" characteristic, unlike ICE engines you'll have your full power potential regardless of the RPM... which negates a large part of the need for gearing, ICE engines having very narrow "peaky" power bands in comparison, gearing helps keep them in that range.
While I'll not deny gearing does have some application in the electric vehicle field, I've the suspicion that the rising popularity of mid-drives has far more to do with the significantly less expensive "general purpose" electric motors that can be used (vs custom designed hubs) and their location (weight & balance) then any overt, distinct advantage the gearing may provide... as food for thought, Toyota's record breaking Pikes Peak electric racer is a single speed - as electrics are cleanly scaleable (less prone to massive variance due to size alone) & as it's about the prime example of hill-climbing ability and speed, it can give one pause to wonder, that gearing may not be a choice made on preformance alone. There's other considerations ofc - but if it's range & speed... maybe not so much;
http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/10/driving-toyotas-ev-pikes-peak-racer/
The faster you go, the greater the drag ofc (an issue w/my hybrid for example) but at the 10-15mph max average of "normal" pedaling, I honestly can't tell my MP2 is even there at all. I'm sure a more dedicated pedalist would be more sensitive to such minute differences, but in the coupla years of muscling 'Mongo' about I've had no cause to complain, or consider anything different.
As for geared hubs and/or geared mid-drive systems, in my personal opinion they're not worth the added complexity & maintenance for a somewhat dubious gearing advantage. Yes, gears do aid with extreme hill-climbing but it's not comparable at all with ICE gearing as the power band (torque & HP curves) is so decidedly different, the penalty in range/reserve painful to say the least when the difference between geared/ungeared is a matter of a few pedal strokes.
I think the biggest advantages of electrics is twofold, the first being the stunning simplicity as hub motors are essentially comprised of one moving part - the second being the "instant torque" characteristic, unlike ICE engines you'll have your full power potential regardless of the RPM... which negates a large part of the need for gearing, ICE engines having very narrow "peaky" power bands in comparison, gearing helps keep them in that range.
While I'll not deny gearing does have some application in the electric vehicle field, I've the suspicion that the rising popularity of mid-drives has far more to do with the significantly less expensive "general purpose" electric motors that can be used (vs custom designed hubs) and their location (weight & balance) then any overt, distinct advantage the gearing may provide... as food for thought, Toyota's record breaking Pikes Peak electric racer is a single speed - as electrics are cleanly scaleable (less prone to massive variance due to size alone) & as it's about the prime example of hill-climbing ability and speed, it can give one pause to wonder, that gearing may not be a choice made on preformance alone. There's other considerations ofc - but if it's range & speed... maybe not so much;
http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/10/driving-toyotas-ev-pikes-peak-racer/
The MP4 looks like a MP3 with sine-wave controller, to me.
The MP2 is a different motor=external controller? right?
This MP3 I ride has very noticeable resistance I don't have the MP2 so I cant compare. Maybe Paul will chime in.
This new geared hub I just received, I can tell just spinning it in my hand that it freewheels way better than my MP3.
Not trying to argue with you guys CB2 and BarelyAwake. Just my observation.
Pedaling down the road I use less than 250w and go 20mph average.
We all probably need at least 3 ebikes. A pedaler, a cruiser and a go-fast.
The MP2 is a different motor=external controller? right?
This MP3 I ride has very noticeable resistance I don't have the MP2 so I cant compare. Maybe Paul will chime in.
This new geared hub I just received, I can tell just spinning it in my hand that it freewheels way better than my MP3.
Not trying to argue with you guys CB2 and BarelyAwake. Just my observation.
Pedaling down the road I use less than 250w and go 20mph average.
We all probably need at least 3 ebikes. A pedaler, a cruiser and a go-fast.
The outdated MP2 isn't as functionally or feature different as is often presented by the retailers, I suspect primarily because the main difference was in quality control - the MP2 connectors & soldering were almost shameful to say the least. The MP2 & MP3 are very similar, both have internal controllers with fully adjustable parameters, the MP3 added a "cooling fan" of sorts to address a heat problem I never had, but most importantly - far far better connectors & soldering, making it a product I'd recommend rather then the one I'd gotten, which while I do love now, I had to completely rebuild, both replacing the fistful of connectors & cracking open the hub to re-solder the board on a brand new, never used product.
I'm not actually complaining BTW, I suspect customer service would have replaced it had I bothered & once repaired, it's been astoundingly faithful & reliable - but insofar as I'm aware, that's the most profound difference between the 2 & 3... I dunno beans about the MP4 though, so I've nuffin' to offer there lol
I don't feel you're "arguing" Lungcookie, you're just offering your perspective & experience - exactly what forums are for I figure. In fact we're not even disagreeing that there's a drag/resistance present while pedaling an unpowered hub motor or that a geared hub may have less, it's just a matter of user relevance, personal preference if you like. I personally find the drag of an unpowered hub motor while pedaling to be insignificant to the point of irrelevance as I'm not a primary pedaler. I do pedal, quite a bit actually - but this is to aid the motor, not usually to operate my motorized bicycle as if it were an unmotorized one. For the occasions that I do, I'm not interested in maximum speed - I'm jus' tooling along at a leisurely pace, puttering alongside pedestrians or wandering wherever, worst case I'm jus' trying to get home on a dead battery. That only happened the once (knock wood lol) but even still, I didn't think it anywhere near enough a noticeable drag effect to consider another motor type, particularly opposed to some potential disadvantages geared & mid-drives have (noise/friction/efficiency/maintenance)...
...but this is purely user & application specific - if you're a primary pedalist, using an electric only to occasionally assist the worst of the hills, then even smallest amount of drag is the enemy, fortunes have been made (& lost ofc) addressing exactly that lol, overall motor reliability & range not nearly as much a concern as it's secondary in that application.
It's all about your priorities & only you can be the judge of those
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I was riding my MP2 powered bike last evening and pedaled to evaluate the drag with the motor off and agree there is some but very little resistance. I would class it as hardly noticeable. I think my 9Cs have even less. The geared hub spins almost as freely as a standard bike wheel.
While I agree that the DD wheel is the ultimate in simplicity and reliability(I have three) the small geared unit has to weigh less than half of what my 500w DD units weigh. Combined with the lighter R/C batteries this bike could weigh up to 20+lbs less than a common build. Pretty important if the bike must be hefted a lot. One of the reasons Im building geared this time is running 24v. Not exactly a bunch of power. I have a lot of time on my neighbors 36v 250w DD mini motor so I will be able to compare geared vs DD. Now if it goes down the road sounding like a siren and eats gear sets, maybe not so cool!
While I agree that the DD wheel is the ultimate in simplicity and reliability(I have three) the small geared unit has to weigh less than half of what my 500w DD units weigh. Combined with the lighter R/C batteries this bike could weigh up to 20+lbs less than a common build. Pretty important if the bike must be hefted a lot. One of the reasons Im building geared this time is running 24v. Not exactly a bunch of power. I have a lot of time on my neighbors 36v 250w DD mini motor so I will be able to compare geared vs DD. Now if it goes down the road sounding like a siren and eats gear sets, maybe not so cool!
